This conversation, I think, is the most reality denying-est
one I’ve ever been involved in. No matter what I say or prove or disprove or
provide information directly from the source for – it is denied, ignored or
laughed at as being crazy. And then dump trucks full of bullshit are emptied
out all over the conversation and touted as fragrant petunias.
Ah, Republicans (I mean, professed non-partisans), the bubble in which you live is so
impenetrable.
I apologize for the length of this post, but hey, I haven't posted anything in over a month, so I'm actually under my monthly word quota.
(Spoiler Alert: Romney lost the election.)
Enjoy…
July 2012
Jan
Dear Governor, you are the Governor, not the President of
Louisiana. Why you would deny the citizens you are sworn to speak for and
protect, the ability to be healthy is beyond me. That is not your right, sir.
It is ours.
signon.org
Defend Obamacare in Louisiana
I just signed a petition to Governor Bobby Jindal:
Governor Jindal, please do your duty and allow Louisiana
residents to get the affordable health care they need by implementing the
provisions of the Affordable Care Act. We need insurance relief in Louisiana
and we need the proposed increase in federal spending on Medicaid. Governor,
please honor your Hippocratic Oath and help us all to live healthier in
Louisiana.
Despite the recent Supreme Court ruling, Governor Bobby
Jindal still refuses to implement the Affordable Care Act in Louisiana. This
has been deemed the law of the land, but it appears that Gov. Jindal would
prefer many people in his state to remain without necessary health care, rather
than damage his political chances. My husband and I were nearly bankrupted
because of my husband's recent heart attack. We need Obamacare in Louisiana,
and we need it NOW.
Wormer
Because he believes that the cost will bankrupt his state.
He may be right.
Noel
No one knows how this plan will be paid for.
Bill Mancuso
The ACA will not bankrupt the state. And it is absolutely
known how it will be paid for. These are Republican lies. The one and only
reason Republicans are against their
health care plan that they came
up with and have been pushing for almost 20 years now is that it gives Obama political
points since he's the one who passed it. It's hard to support the ACA if your stated goal is to prevent Obama from becoming a two-term President. But hey,
let's all put Party before country like the Republicans enjoy doing so much.
Jan
Oh c'mon, guys! That is not a valid response! There's a
million ways to pay for this! For starters, how bout actually taxing
corporations?! How bout .05% increase on people that make over $250k or fuck
over $1MM? I would happily pay .05% more so the people of my country can stop
living in fear, so children can see doctors, so my fellow humans can be
healthier more productive beings of society, thus, make more money. God!
Bill Mancuso
If anyone is actually interested in what the ACA is about as
opposed to repeating partisan lies, have a go at this...
Wormer
Politics will always play a role, but to think only one side
does that is silly. I am NOT partisan (are you?). [Yes,
you are. Incredibly so. And no, I am not. I'm a Freethinker.] It is unfair to say that if you have honest
concerns about the law, that somehow you are uncaring. [It is unfair to push ulterior motive-based, biased misinformation as legitimately honest concern.] We all want better
access to better care for everyone. How do we get there is the question. I am
sure there are good parts of the law and bad. How can ANY law that is a zillion
pages not have some of both. I just have trouble with bigger govt and will
never believe that bigger govt. will help us regardless of party. Ill be happy
to read the link, but surely it will paint one perspective.
Bill Mancuso
The Affordable Care Act will paint the perspective of the
Affordable Care Act without being filtered through any talking heads. Your
preemptive excuse paints you as partisan.
Wormer
ummm no, I just commented before I opened the link. Amazing
the anger thrown at me for having a different thought than you. [Amazing how people who know they are partisan, yet
claim they are not, seem to think everything I say to them is in anger. Feeling
guilty? Why didn’t you read the link? Did you not want the opinion you were
told to have be shattered by facts?]
Bill Mancuso
It is the bill itself. It is not being told what the bill
says by a partisan opinion. How is it that relaying plain simple facts seem
'angry' to you?
Jan
Well, let's not forget that they seemed to have figured it
out perfectly in Massachusetts! You know, that guy Mittens, everyone's been
talking about lately, I believe he's a republican? You might have heard of him.
Yeah, he figured it out just fine in Massachusetts.
Wormer
Did I say I love Mitt? [Stop obfuscating. Her
obvious point was not your love of Mitt. Her point was that a Republican governor
implemented the Republican health care plan in his state that Obama wants to
use as a model for the country. It covers 98% of the population and has about
an 85% popularity rate. But suddenly, the Democrat wants it and it’s socialism
that will bankrupt the country.]
Jan
oh, Wormer, that was just me being sarcastic in
general...not directed at you at all. I totally know you weigh both sides of
the coin before deciding how you roll :-). [She’s
lying to keep the peace. I have no such worries.]
Wormer
Not the bill, the rest of your language. [Yes. My scary fact-talk.] I have concerns
with massive govt intervention in probably the biggest sector of our economy. I
want ALL people to have affordable access to world-class health care. I do not
trust govt to get it done, ANY govt... this will not be a democratic run plan
or a republican one. It is simply a federal program. I am not "repeating
partisan lies" as you say, I just have some concerns with a 1,000 page law
that no one really read before they signed it. The implications of what will
follow will be interesting to say the least, but in the end, I just dont trust
govt. to do things efficiently and competently. [Yes,
Republicans have been told to never trust the government, so you blindly repeat
it. If Republicans think government is bad, why do they want to be in it? To
make it bad? They’re doing a hell of a job.]
Noel
I heard [on FOX “News”]
that no one took the time to read the bill as it was too long and complicated.
[To be fair, that part's true.] That no one knows how it's going to be paid for. That it adds millions of new
patients but no new doctors but 16000 new IRS agents. And finally [I also heard on FOX “News”] that they
can't figure out how to save social security which they should figure out
before this. And I'm not a republican so hold your hate. [Libertarian?] I just don't think we should
fuck with the health care system that everyone in the world comes here for. [And only the rich can afford. It’s about
accessibility. Not quality. And yes, when I point out that you are repeating
lies and I correct you, that means I hate you. I'm amazed you drew the line between facts and hatred so easily.]
Jan
But sometimes...government does get it right. I just got my
mail :-)
Wormer
post office is bankrupt too. [Intentionally
so by Republican legislation. I’ll get to it in a bit.]
[This next section in red I
somehow missed during the original discussion. I’ll address the nonsense
forthwith. (I have never before in my life used the term “forthwith.” EVER.
Probably because it isn’t 1835.)]
** **
** ** **
Hasselhoff
Exactly Noel. But we do know that
half a trillion in Medicare has been stolen from the seniors who raised us [We do? How? If you’re going to repeat a talking
point, please also provide some information.] along with Sebellius openly double counting projected "savings"
in medicare fraud. [No. Representative
John Shimkus from Illinois said Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen
Sibelius said she was double counting. She tried to explain, but as is
customary during witch trials, Shimkus asked her to explain, then cut her off
and he proclaimed she is double counting. FOX “News” and the right used this as
“proof” of double counting. Here is the video. The
truth is that the money isn’t being taken away from Medicare recipients to fund
Obamacare. The $500B is cut out of Medicare fraud and overbilling and then
applied to Obamacare. This will keep the costs of both Medicare and Obamacare
down. But gold star for repeating an unsubstantiated right-wing talking point.] If someone can actually
point to the time when exactly the government ever rooted out fraud and then
applied savings to the actual debt - do let me know - I have a bridge to sell
you made of straw. [Reuters: U.S. charges more than 100 for Medicare fraud schemes] Further, we now know $2.7 trillion will be spent with money
we don't have across ten years for only 6 actual years of "services".
[That is a misdirection.
In 2010, it was planned for most of the ACA to start in 2014 to give time for the states to implement the program. However, many aspects began right away. Republicans are saying that four year span doesn't count. Also, contrary to right-wing lies that Obamacare will cost even more than originally projected, the CBO estimates the ACA will reduce the deficit and cost even LESS than originally projected.] Yet 20 million will still be uninsured. So even the stated
goal of universal healthcare is a non starter.
[True. Republicans blocked and Obama cowered at both the single-payer and public
options.] In actuality, if you read the
decision, "insurance exchanges" are no longer required to be set up
by the states anymore since the blackmail provision (punishing states for not
expanding medicare dollars - that they can neither afford nor print money for -
as will the Fed is intent on for "healthcare reform" if its not
repealed in full). [This is just
gibberish in talking point form. There are still exchanges. And it’s Medicaid,
not Medicare. And there is no punishment – the Supreme Court said so. And the Fed pays 90%-100% of costs. And opting out would drive UP costs. ] So Jindall, Scott of FL, Christie of NJ and surprise
surprise, even some Democrat governors also are delaying the implementation of
exchanges themselves till they see whether Obama and this law survive past
November 6. [No. Democrats are not
delaying. The process is complicated, so it’s taking longer than the original
expected four years. Kathleen Sibelius sent letters to all Governors extending
the deadline to submit their plans for the exchange. Republicans are
grandstanding but are, however, going to cave on their recalcitrance. Just like
Christie already has.] So Jindahl is actually representing the best interests of the [deluded right-wing Teabaggers in the] state. The biggest
mistake people make is thinking that Obamacare is about care. It is not. It is
about expanding the powerbase of the federal government further into your lives
the way FDR did by expanding the welfare state. [By
forcing you to purchase private corporation health insurance? And yeah, FDR destroyed America. What a dismal time for the USA after his reformation.] And yet, 20 million will still be uninsured. And those who
still have employer based policies now - more than 50% will lose them- by
design. [No. They won’t. By design.] Its bad enough people will lose their
insurance because of Obamacare [Computer says, “no.”
] - but when you take into
consideration that these are pre-tax insurance premiums - people will now have
to buy more expensive insurance - with the money that is left over after the
taxman gets to them. [No.] So they'll be paying far more for far less [No.] - while the bottom
40% of wage earners will get "free insurance" off the middle class
taxpayer's backs [No.] Those are the real "free riders". If we'd had read
the bill before we'd passed it - we'd have seen it. Myths: "If you like
your doctor you can keep him". Nope. In fact, we're going to have a doctor
shortage. JAMA predicts up to a 33% shortage in the short term. [That has absolutely nothing to do with Obamacare.
They’ve been saying this for almost 20 years. And it’s not true.]
"If you like your insurance plan you
can keep it" - nope. [Yes.
] Truths:
This "affordable healthcare act" will hit the middle class taxpayer
right in the wallet [False. The
ACA is designed so you can keep your plan unless payments go up and coverage
goes down - then the ACA will replace those lost benefits at a lower cost.] - precisely at the time we are headed to a second dip of a
recession and an anemic 1.9% growth rate [True.] with real unemployment at 14.3%. [“Real” meaning “Republican math.” It’s 7.9% outside of
the Republ-O-Sphere.] Big
big truth: The sleazy politicians that forced this patchworked frankenstien of
a bill through bribery (The Louisiana Purchase - Landriu, The Cornhusker
Kickback to Nelson, The FL "gator aid" bribe to Sen. Nelson -
exempting FL seniors from the above mentioned medicare theft - which will now
go to younger citizens) [Not one of those
things happened. They were issues that all fell through, but FOX continued to
play it like they happened. They did not.] have all exempted themselves from
participating in this plan - they will keep their goldplated insurance programs
that pay for everything from a hangnail to top-shelf cancer treatments - and
you and I will be footing the bill - they will not pay one red cent.) [They are not exempt. Newt Gingrich's lie was debunked three years ago. Didn't they tell you about it on FOX "News?" For fuck’s sake.] I have a
feeling this election there will be a conversation - are you for a free market
economy with market based solutions such as health savings accounts, tort
reform and inter-state commerce allowing for greater insurance cost reductions
- or are you for a european style welfare state that will implode under its own
immorality of un-funded liabilities that stretch as far as the eye can see? My
guess is that there are far more people interested in a representative republic
than a bananna republic. We'll know in four months one way or the other. [What the fuck fucking fear-mongering nonsense was
that?]
Wormer
delivering mail is quite simple
compared to HC. [“I just dont trust govt.
to do things efficiently and competently.” Except when you’re proven wrong?]
Hasselhoff
Yes, Jan - but I just wish the
mailman could forget some of my bills.... As to your point about mittens - yes,
he has a problem and has splainin' to do. MASS MittCare failed and he needs to
own up to that. [What. Fucking. World.
Do. You. Live. In?] He was for the Mitt
mandate - and needs to splain that as well. He has said lamely that what is
good for MAss may not be good for the masses (get it... masses....) and that
the states are a laborotory for trying things out - but that the Feds role is
not to do that kind of sweeping legislation. He is getting a bit more correct
on the "tax" aspect and his messaging is perhaps a bit less cloudy
than last week - but it is better than Team "It's a tax, it's not a
tax" dancing on the head of a pin in terms of definitions. Partisanship
always gets people turned off - and I agree with you on that. It would be great
to have a national discussion on the issue on the merits. The "affordable
care act" was rammed through with a deep partisan divide and debate pretty
much shut. [Yes, the Affordable Care Act
– the Republican plan created in 1994 by the right-wing think-tank, the
Heritage Foundation, as an alternate to Hillarycare, touted for almost 20 years
by the Republicans, implemented in Massachusetts to an 85% popularity rate, covering
98% of the state – was a failure in Mass and rammed through with newfound "deep
partisan divide" – Republicans suddenly hating their own plan they loved for two
decades before the black guy agreed with it.] Now - over the next four months - we're
going to actually have that debate. Lets hope it don't get ugly...
BTW there are many of us on the repeal side who do not want
to have those less fortunate to be without care. We just believe that there is
a smarter way to do it rather than basically putting everyone on a - well lets
call it what it will be - a big government version of medicare [Medicare works. Quite well. At low costs. Hence the
frequent calling for “Medicare for all.” Also - what do you mean by "a big government version of Medicare?" Medicare is a big government program. A big government version of a big government program? Douchetard.] -
spread out so far and wide that your actual "care" will be rationed out
just by the sheer size of our nation (350 milllion citizens) [311 million. You added almost two Australia's to our population, you uneducated twit.] and still no way
to pay for it. [More with the repetition
of fear-mongered FOX talking points without basis in fact.] Estonia managed to get a form of universal healthcare done
and manage to still have a 7.5% growth rate (the only euro member to do so) by
doing guess what? Being energy friendly and having a tax payer friendly
relationship to the public sector unions and having actual parity - rather than
the insanity that has been allowed to happen in Calif, MI, WI (no longer thank
goodness) and other states. When I hear people say we "should be more like
Europe" I say, well, look to estonia... [Where
do I begin… So, progressives in Estonia did all the things Republicans are
making a sport out of blocking? California is on track for a budget
surplus. Wisconsin was doing OK until Republican Governor
Scott Walker, almost recalled, did all the things Republicans do, attacking
teachers, unions, workers and the middle class, raising taxes on the middle
class & cut social programs while giving huge tax cuts to giant
corporations. And Michigan, unemployment is higher than the national average,
Republican Rick Snyder and his Fascist 'emergency management' bullshit plus all
the usual teacher, union, worker attacks, raise middle class tax, cut social
program funding and huge tax breaks for the wealthy – all the usual Republican
austerity measures that have been failing in America (and Europe) for decades.]
[OK. That was everything I missed the first go-around.]
** **
** ** **
Bill Mancuso
Yes, just like Republican politicians say (then tell you to
vote for them so they can be a part of the government), the government is
inefficient and incompetent. As evidenced by all the branches of the military,
police, fire, post, Medicare, library, 911 emergency, interstate highway
system, National Weather Service, the GI Bill, the CDC and every other efficient
and competent government run system that needs to be ignored in order to
believe Republican lies. The Bush administration forced the Post Office to pay
all their pensions up front for some reason, which is obviously unsustainable
and is why that is screwed up. [The Bush-era
Republican controlled congress wrote a law forcing the Post Office to have 75
years worth of pensions in escrow - The Postal Accountability and Enhancement Act of 2006. The Postal Accountability and Enhancement Act of 2006. No company in the world does that. People
who aren’t even born yet that will work for the PO have their pensions ready.
The reason is the Post Office is the largest union in the U.S. and we all know
how Republicans hate when employees have bargaining power. Plus, they’ve been
trying to privatize the PO so a corporation can make a profit instead of the
completely self-sustained, non tax-payer funded, government program working
efficiently and cheaply. How much does it cost to mail a letter anywhere in the
U.S.? How much to FedEx or UPS that same letter? Which is cheaper – the
completely self-sustained, non tax-payer funded, government program, or the
privately-owned corporation? And no, the Post Office was not going bankrupt.
That is a Republican lie designed to make you want to not like the Post
Office. If the PAEA was not enacted by Republicans in 2006, the Post office would have a $1.5 Billion SURPLUS today. Fuckers.]
'Hearing' that no one read it and 'hearing' that no one
knows how it will be paid for does not equal the truth. No new IRS agents will
be hired. That's a lie. It does add doctors. There is not a problem with Social
Security. As for 'everyone in the world coming here for health care' - you are
confusing the advanced level of care available with the ability to pay for it -
which, up until now, 50 million Americans couldn't.
For a couple of people claiming to not be Republican, I keep
hearing a lot of thoroughly debunked Republican lies being casually tossed
around as facts.
Hasselhoff
Bill, I'll answer your points in a friendly
non partisan way. First of all, 911, police, fire - they are at the state level
- funded by state residents - not part of the discussion really. Everyone
agrees those are vital and we pay for them - happily so. [I see. The parts of the efficiently run government
that don’t support your right-wing, yet "non-partisan," biased view don’t count.]
But it is fair for the taxpayer to ask for parity. i.e., the tax payer often
does not get anywhere near half the deal the public sector unions have gotten
(retirement at 50 or 55 with lifetime pensions and benefits). They just merely
ask for public sector unions to kick in - not even anywhere close to where the
average tax payer kicks in for theirs. 5% vs 50%? i'd take that deal and still
kick in 10-25 on my own - its called responsibility over taking from the makers
;) [Again with the right-wing, yet non-partisan,
attack on unions. Yes, it’s horrible that after working for 40 years of your
life you are allowed to retire with $175,000 per year pension. You should have
to work at least 60 years for your corporate employer and wonder if you'll have a pension at all since they eliminated defined-benefit pension plans. How dare unions fight for the workers! How sucky it
was for the unions to fight for 40-hour work weeks, child labor laws, paid
vacations, time and a half overtime, weekends, bargain for raises! In states
without “Right to Work” laws ( laws that protect corporations and strip unions
of power), even wages for non-union workers are higher. So, your complaint is
that unions are good and they help the worker, so that’s bad? I know you’re
non-partisan and all, but you sure keep repeating right-wing nonsense.]
As for Social Security and Medicare going broke - they most
assuredly are - this is not from those rascally republicans but also from
democrats who get it like Ron Wyden of OR. But don't ask them - talk to the
people in the know: the trustees of Social Security and Medicare have been
saying this loud and clear. If you'd like to learn more about it - you can from
this Politico (very left of center outlet - to avoid partisanship). The truth
is inescapable unfortunately. I'd love to live in a land of make believe as
well but when people say that social security is not in trouble - they are not
looking at the facts...
[First, even though both
Liberals and Conservatives say so, Social Security and Medicare are NOT fucking
going broke. This is a fact that really exists in the really-real world.
Republicans just keep saying this to turn people against
these programs because they want to make them into corporate profit businesses.
Second, no matter how many right-wingers try to portray Politico as left-wing
because they don’t embrace fringe right-wing Teatard conspiracy theories,
Politico is a right-of-center organization, founded by Reaganites. Another fact
that really exists in the really-real world. Third, the author of this
particular center-right Politico opinion piece is John C. Goodman – a
Libertarian – a rascally Republican anarchist. Fourth, you are making it very
difficult to continue believing you are non-partisan. Not only have you never
once expressed anything liberal, let alone factual, but you seem to lovey-love-love
debunked far right-wing bullshit.
Here are some items that
explain ALL the facts about SS & Medicare – not just the cherry-picked
statistics that seem to support your bullshit.
Social Security:
Medicare:
Politico:
John C. Goodman:
- Libertarian economist.
- President of conservative
think-tank, The National Center for Policy Analysis
- Research Fellow at
conservative libertarian think-tank, The Independent Institute
- Rupert Murdock’s Wall
Street Journal calls him the “father of Health Savings Accounts.”
- Health Savings Accounts are
part of the unfunded Medicare Part D. Health Savings accounts benefits only
young, healthy people who rarely need medical attention. This plan makes the
health care system more expensive for everyone else.]
Wormer
Bill, people are debating merits of the law here, no one is
defending Bush or Republicans. There is plenty with that administration we
didn't like either. But that is in the past and you're the only one introducing
politics into the discussion. [If you say the Post Office is on track for failure, I’m going to point out the facts
why. You can’t say I can’t bring up the past because it disagrees with you
pretending to be non-partisan but still getting upset when I point out the
right-wing bullshit you’re shoveling. This discussion exists BECAUSE OF
politics, Capisce? Twunt.] Let go of the party allegiances, [Stop pushing extreme right-wing lies.] I
promise it will be VERY liberating to hate them all. :) Military is one of the
few agencies that show superior skill, cost-sensible?
[No, not cost sensible. Any time someone suggests cutting out the military fat,
Republicans scream “anti-American, socialist, communist Marxist!” Sorry for
bringing up politics in this completely fucking political discussion.] IDK,
but necessary (though we probably spend too much on wars and intervention than
we should get involved in (yes, Bush) Police are local govt, fire is local
govt, Medicare is Federal and is in shambles, [No.
See through right-wing lies above.] Library is local, 911 is local,
emergency is either local or private, highways are run by states, [No, the Dwight D. Eisenhower National System of
Interstate and Defense Highways is a federal system authorized by the Federal
Aid Highway Act of 1956.] NWS? that's a pretty simple system and
relatively cheap, [The National Weather Service
(the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration – NOAA) is simple and
cheap? $6B, 20,000 full time employees, dozens of weather and beacon satellites,
earthquake & tsunami detectors – fuck, I could go on for pages about what
NOAA does. Google it yourself. Simple and cheap. You fucking - keepittogetherkeepittogetherkeepittogether.] GI bill provides
funding for GIs but isnt a complicated regulatory system, CDC, I honestly have
no idea how competent or efficient they are. [So,
again, all the government agencies and programs that do work don’t count in
your manufactured, factless, repeated right-wing talking point about government
not ever working. I get it.] How will the Law add doctors? We will
hand out medical degrees? [Already covered the
doctor shortage lie.]
Hasselhoff
Bill - not one democrat [or
Republican] read the bill. You can take that to the bank. Boehner
was excoriated for even making the suggestion. John Conyers even famously said
- we don't have time to read the bill and scoffed at the very notion that they
should even have to...
_what ever happened to Obamas promise to post bills up
online for five days? What ever happened to "i'll be the most transparent
presidency in history"... oops ;) [Yeah.
Obama lied about being completely transparent. Government will never be
transparent, no matter what they say or who is in charge. And at around 1,000 pages, the ACA is
a long bill, I’ll admit. But Congress doesn’t read most of the bills they do or
don’t pass. These days, staff, lobbyists and think-tanks provide their own
analysis to the politicians they own; Congress rarely reads anything. With over
2/3 of the year on their scheduled vacation, who has time? Besides, Conyers was
correct. Even if they read it, they would need lawyers to explain most of it
anyway.]
Wormer
we shoulda passed Simpson-Bowles instead... then I would
have been an Obama cheerleader. [Yeah, more
right-wing – I mean “non-partisan” austerity measures. Massive cuts in social program spending and small tax increases. And no, you wouldn't have been an Obama cheerleader. You're complaining now about things he hasn't done. Why would that change for Simpson-Bowles?
]
Hasselhoff
Bill, you said "As for 'everyone in the world coming
here for health care' - you are confusing the advanced level of care available
with the ability to pay for it - which, up until now, 50 million Americans
couldn't". First of all 50 million were not uninsured so lets put that old
saw to rest. [Not according to facts OUTSIDE the Republ-O-Sphere.
At the time of this discusson in July, 2012, it was
50 million uninsured. A few months later, some Obamacare provisions had kicked
in, insuring about a million and a half more people.] The
Census pointed out 10-14 million - mostly younger healthy people who chose not
to take on that expense. When you say 50 million people are now insured [I never said that.] that doesn't even
begin to pass the smell test. Again because of the medicare opt out of the
states which was also in the decision last week - that means upwards of 20
million - likely more - will still be uninsured. [True.
It’s estimated Obamacare will only cover 30 million more people. That’s because
Obama backed down to Republicans and didn’t include a public option. But it has nothing to do with a Medicare opt-out.]
This plan fixes nothing [If you consider 30 million
extra people insured to be ‘nothing.’] and only increases costs [Not according to facts.] and drives down
care [Not according to facts.] because
when something is considered "free" [I guess if you consider being forced to participate in the free market system and purchase
health insurance to be "free?"] guess what happens - everyone gets on
line for the goodies. The new law will NOT bring in more doctors. Even those
who didn't read the bill knew enough that this was going to be a problem and
even their own "doc fix' did nothing to relieve the problem. Further
according to the Association of American Medical Colleges there will be a
shortage of 63,000 doctors by 2015 and 130,600 by 2025. Further, according to
AMA Leader Cecil B. Wilson, MD - "there will be a deficiency of at least
125,000 physicians by 2025. But - we already have 22 states and 17 medical
specialty societies reporting shortages. Despite the last-minute reprieve on
SGR -- the apocryphally named sustainable growth rate formula -- many of us
have been forced to limit the number of Medicare patients simply because we no
longer can afford to serve them." You can argue the merits of what a
doctor's role is in society, his or her oath and all that - but it doesn't take
an 11 year old to see that when you squeeze their resources and have a
government take over - there is no way to have quality / compassionate care.
The human element is gone. The doctor patient relationship is forever tainted -
that is - if you can get a doctor. People in med school are waiting out
November as well and may change their career choices. The unintended effects of
the "affordable healthcare act" is even giving rise to the trend of
temporary doctors - which will only be a band-aid (pardon the pun) in the
scheme of things.
You can wish Obama care to be many things. A cure all. A
form of utopia. For it to be actually about care and not control... But you can
wish for a unicorn too. It doesn't mean you'll get one... ;) [OK. First, I will concede
that it doesn’t add more doctors. Having conceded that, I have also shown that
there is no doctor shortage, so everything else you said is useless
misinformation. Even from your right-wing Forbes fear-mongering misinformation
extravaganza article. Second, the limiting of Medicare patients has been going
on for almost 20 years and has nothing to do with Obamacare. Third, resources
are not being squeezed and Obamacare (forcing people to purchase insurance from
a corporation is institutionalizing capitalism) is the diametric opposite of a
government takeover. Fourth, no quality/compassionate care, human element is
gone (robot doctors?), doctor/patient relationship forever tainted – are you
writing a melodrama? What the fuck are you on about? Fifth, no one, NO ONE
called Obamacare a form of Utopia. Is that what FOX “News” is telling you
Liberals are saying? That’s the problem with listening to what right-wing TV and radio tells you the
other Party thinks instead of finding out from the other Party directly. Most
Liberals and non-Conservatives are also disappointed with the outcome of
Obamacare. But we at least understand that it's a start and can see its potential to be better. Sixth, Obamacare
isn’t about care, it’s about control? Control of what, exactly? I’m not
following that Conservative talking point.]
Third, you seem to have a
misunderstanding of how European economies work. They’re free market
capitalists as well. Please turn off FOX “News” and back away from the TV.
Fourth, Liberals are not opposed to drilling oil. You have been yet again,
misinformed. And taxpayer money was not wasted on green technologies. And there
were no frauds. And there are no Obama campaign bundlers. But please, continue
spouting (non-partisan) right-wing, thoroughly debunked lies. Fifth, you
stated, “we throw billions of taxpayer money for solar and green energy
frauds.” Of the 28 green companies that got a total of $26 Billion in total
loans, only three (3) of them filed for bankruptcy: Solyndra, Beacon Power and
Abound Solar, that’s under a 10% failure rate – lower than Congress expected.
And only 4% of the money was lost – an incredibly small amount of the total.
But far be it from Republicans to not take an opportunity to trump up bullshit
that constituents like you will blindly repeat. Sixth, when you say “your
side,” in referring to oil opposition, you are claiming to be right-wing and
not non-partisan as you previously proclaimed. (Even though you misattribute me
to being Liberal.) Gee, now I’m confused.]
Wormer I agree with you. While I did not think Bowles
Simpson went nearly enough - they at least addressed the out of whack spending
we have committed as yet unborn children to pay for the rest of their lives.
[LA Times: Federal deficit hits 5-year low, but cuts drag economy] Obama completely punted on leadership on the issue as did both parties in
congress with the temporary "super committee" which keeps kicking the
can down the road. [Congress deadlocked, but it's Obama's fault. I see. When Gavrilo Princip murdered Archduke Franz Ferdinand and his wife, sparking World War I, was that Obama's fault as well?] If people actually read the proposals from democrat Ron
Wyden (gasp) his partner Paul Ryan - we'd have a real roadmap for a bi-partisan
solution to the most predictable debt crisis we've seen in history - which is
about to be exacerbated by the largest tax increase - in the history of western
civilization. okay - lunch hour over - that is the extent of knowledge I can
contribute today ;) [First, Simpson-Bowles
didn’t cut enough social programs? It wasn’t fascist enough? Second, Republicans
oppose any tax increases, completely halting any progress ever, but it’s
Obama’s fault? Third, as for the Mitt Romney LIE that Ron Wyden co-led a piece
of legislation with that punk-ass bitch, Paul Ryan, that Republicans love to
blindly repeat, this is what Wyden had to say about that,
“Gov. Romney is
talking nonsense. Bipartisanship requires that you not make up the facts. I did
not ‘co-lead a piece of legislation.’ I wrote a policy paper on options for
Medicare. Several months after the paper came out I spoke and voted against the
Medicare provisions in the Ryan budget. Governor Romney needs to learn you
don’t protect seniors by makings things up, and his comments today sure won’t
help promote real bipartisanship."]
Jan
uh...Wormer...that was a joke. An attempt to lighten the
mood. Pretty sure I get that Health Care doesn't compare to getting the mail.
Wormer
fair enough, some don't ;)
Noel
Let me get this straight... So we're going to be
"gifted" with a health care plan we are forced to purchase and fined
if we don't, [The fine can’t be levied, so it’s
a hollow threat.] which purportedly covers at least ten million MORE
people [30 million] without adding a
single new doctor, but provides for 16,000 new IRS agents, [No. More like 375 IRS agents. That lie was completely fabricated by the GOP.] written by a
committee whose chairman says he doesn't understand it, passed by a congress
that didn't read it but exempted themselves from it, [No,
Congress did not exempt themselves from it. That’s a lie.] and
signed by a president who smokes, [Used to
smoke. And has nothing to do with anything.] with funding administered by a treasury chief who didn't pay
his taxes for which we'll be taxed for four years before any benefits take
effect, [No. Many benefits started immediately.] by a government which
has already bankrupted social security [No.]
and medicare, [No. That's good, too.] all to be
overseen by a surgeon general who is obese [Surgeon
General Regina M. Benjamin, MD, MBA
is not obese. Are you taking reporting lessons from Sean Hannity?]
and financed by a country that is broke? [America
is not broke.]
[I will respond to this next
bundle of lies in a bit.]
Hasselhoff
Bill, ACA is NOT nor will it ever be "paid for".
It is 1000% deficit spending - which is not really spending as much as it is
generational theft. Jan, the US is already the highest taxed nation in terms of
corporate taxes - unless you are GE, GM or pick any Obama green company that
has just gone belly up with billions of tax payer $ never to be recovered. The
simplest way is pre HMO Act of 1973 pay for service and mend, not end Medicare
Medicaid and S-chip for those who truly cannot afford insurance. Running the
largest and greatest healthcare system in the world as a DMV or post office is
sheer insanity. I never understood why if 85% of the people who were happy with
their coverage that the only answer for the solution to the 10-15% not covered
- should be achieved by spreading misery evenly and calling it a solution. It's
not. And the list of failed economies and poorer standards of living are too numerous
as history records them.
[Jesus fucking Christ those
two “non-partisans” sure can yammer nonsensically on at incredible length
about what I said. It’s fun taking apart their talking points, though.]
[OK. Some of the stuff I say
next will be repeated. It was a long time before I responded during the
original Facebook discussion, so I added comments as I went through in
preparing this for the blog. Please bear with me.]
Bill Mancuso
My apologies for taking so long to respond. I had things to
do. Wow, do I have a lot to respond to. Mind you, I’m just correcting the
Republican lies that everyone really seems to enjoy repeating all willy-nilly
without ever checking their veracity. This does not automatically mean I
unconditionally support the ACA. Nor does it mean I’m a Democrat. Which I’m
not. Nor does it mean I hate you. Your fragile little egos.
Ok. So, it's only the specific kinds of government that
don’t run efficiently (which you haven’t named) that support your argument
against it that you accept. Nothing else counts. Fine.
As for the Politico article, just how hard did you search to
find a right-wing, FOX "News" contributing author (John C. Goodman)
to write that obviously biased article full of misinformation on a left-leaning
site? [Actually, as I have shown earlier, a
right-leaning site.]
As for the facts regarding Social Security's
sustainability...
And you know what would easily help solve any potential
deficiency in SS? Do not cap the payroll tax at $106,800. But (sorry to inject
politics again) Republicans are protecting the wealthy again. The inefficiency
is not due to the program itself, but by the politicians bought by their
wealthy donors. [Capping the payroll tax a $106,800 shifts the burden off of the wealthy and onto the middle class.]
As for living in a land of make believe, well... enjoy.
No one is debating the merits of the law here. No one is
bringing up things that are ACTUALLY in the bill and discussing their
implications. You guys are all bringing up right-wing lies that have been
debunked. Oh, but I'M the one being political (and angry and unfriendly) for
bringing up unbiased facts. Ok. Sure. Whatever helps you feel good about your
bias.
So, Bush makes the USPS pay all their employee pensions up
front, which is THE reason the USPS is screwed, not due to any inefficiency in
the program itself, and we shouldn't look to the past? If someone murders a
family member, do you also say don't put him on trial, that was in the past?
Please. Our entire existence is based on what happened in the past. It's how we
learn. Well, most of us. I guess unless a Republican did something wrong, then
we shouldn't look at the past. But then, I'M the one injecting politics into
your blatant right-wing supporting arguments.
"How will the Law add doctors? We will hand out medical
degrees?" Are you serious? If a position needs to be filled, a person is
hired to fill it. It happens every day. In every business. People go to medical
school to become doctors. A hospital needs a doctor. A hospital hires a doctor.
If more people are seeing doctors due to being able to afford health care, more
doctors who went to medical school to become doctors will be hired. No one has
to "hand out medical degrees." Or were you just trying to make the
ACA sound silly without using any facts. Of course, there won’t be enough
doctors, but that’s another issue. [I just
described how doctors normally become doctors, not pertaining to ACA, but
whatever. I’m just sick of baseless fear-mongering.]
But I'M the one being political.
You are right about nobody reading the bill. However, it has
been floating around for a couple of years now. Long enough for you and
everybody else to know better than to keep repeating the debunked right-wing
lies about what it does or doesn't say at this point. Or am I wrong?
As for your right-wing, misinformation-laden Forbes article
about the uninsured that tries to make it seem like people just don't want to
pay for what they are able to pay for, it was actually closer to 53 million not
able to afford care:
You are right though, I should have been clearer. My
apologies. 50 mil will not be covered due to the Supreme Court's decision
regarding Medicare. It will only be around 32 mil more instead. So Republican
Governors, like Jindal, the topic which started this thread, will opt out of
providing his citizens the option of coverage because he hates the Republican
health care plan that scores Obama political points. Yay, partisanship.
As for 10 - 14 mil young healthy people that choose not to
buy health insurance even though they can afford it - yes, it is estimated that
up to 10 mil may be able to afford it. The Census does not say this an
indisputable fact. It is an estimate. I guess that means America shouldn't try
and keep health care costs down because of them.
The ACA does not increase costs. That is a right-wing lie.
HR2 (the Republicans' oh-so-childishly-named "Repealing the Job-Killing
Health Care Law Act") is what would increase the deficit by $230 billion.
NEVER has it been considered "free." I'm not sure
how someone PURCHASING insurance equates to "Obama wants to give everyone
free health care" in Republican minds. It’s tough to give up brainwashed
talking points, I guess. I'm sure you'll continue to ignore this fact in order to push your lies, though.
It does increase the number of health care providers (not
only doctors). But you are correct, it does not provide enough. So, is your
argument that we shouldn’t bother trying to insure people because not enough
people are going to med school?
And please stop with the right-wing “Government takeover of
healthcare” fear-mongering lie. Buying insurance is not a government takeover.
And how do you link the ‘temporary doctor’ trend that
started well almost 20 years ago to the ACA? Oh, the connection was made in
right-wing FORBES magazine in order to try and add more to the fear-mongering
against the ACA. It doesn’t matter if it has nothing to do with it. Nice.
I do not think the ACA is a utopia or cure-all. I am not a
Democrat. I am simply pointing out the lies you and others are repeating. You
somehow perceive this as me being a blind left-wing follower in the same way
that you are a blind right-wing follower. You are wrong. I find many faults
with the half-assed, watered down ACA. It’s just that I’m not repeating things
that are not true. Yes, some of the stats I posted were incorrect. I apologized
and corrected. If you said, ‘Hitler had big, bushy sideburns!’ And I said, ‘No,
Hitler had a little mustache.’ That would not mean I support Hitler.
The World Health Org stats disagree with your right-wing
“America is the bestest in everything ever!” brainwashing, so you label them
partisan funded.
Canada’s Premier, Danny Williams went to Florida not because
he did not want to ‘wait it out in Canada,’ insinuating that Canada has a
shoddy health care system. It does not. Just ask the Palin family, who sneak
over the border into Canada for their health care. He went to FL because
specialties such as the cardiac procedure he needed were not available in
Canada. This supports my previous statement that America has an advanced level
of care. And that anyone can have it – those who can afford it, that is.
As for the UK Healthcare Administrator dying of cancer, over
500,000 people die in America per year while being treated for cancer. Many of
them are also waiting for surgery. So, what does that mean?
Ok. Let’s pretend “my side” is the Democrats for the purpose
of this discussion. Let’s pretend that simple facts are partisan and when they
disagree with right-wing dogma, they’re liberal as opposed to neutral. You say,
“…they drill and sell oil. Something your side is vehemently opposed to as we
throw billions of taxpayer money for solar and green energy frauds tied to Obama
campaign bundlers.” - Facts OUTSIDE the impenetrable bubble in which you live: For the first time since 1949, under the Obama
administration, America has EXPORTED more oil and gas than it imported. Oil
IMPORTS have dropped 11% down to 1995 levels. Obama has QUADRUPLED the amount
of oil rigs in the Gulf since he took office. (Not to mention that during the
last three Bush years oil output DECREASED each year.) And your repetition of
the ‘Obama green energy fraud’ lies yet again paint you as partisan. I’m sure
you’re talking about Solyndra. Republicans LOVE talking about Solyndra –
ignoring the truth. The Energy Department's loan guarantee program was created
as part of the Energy Policy Act of 2005, passed by a Republican-controlled
Congress and signed by George W. Bush. Republicans, including Bush, emphasized the
program's benefits for nuclear energy and biofuels. Bush touted the new energy
law in his 2007 State of the Union address. His energy secretary, Samuel
Bodman, regularly mentioned the loan guarantees in speeches on renewable
energy. The Energy Department issued its final rules for the program in 2007,
along with a list of 16 companies that made the cut to apply for its first
round of awards, and SOLYNDRA was among them. Bush energy officials wanted to
get the loan closed on their way out the door — it was listed as the first of
their "three highest priorities through January 15." (Obama took
office Jan. 20, 2009.) But the Energy Department's credit committee held things
up for more analysis. That didn't keep Bush from touting the loan guarantee
program on his way out of office. On Jan. 6, 2009, in remarks on conservation
and the environment, he said, "We dedicated more than $18 billion to
developing clean and efficient technologies like biofuels, advanced batteries
and hydrogen fuel cells, solar and wind power, and clean, safe nuclear power.
We're providing more than $40 billion in loan guarantees to put these
technologies to use." So yes, Solyndra was part of Bush’s $58 billion
green energy plan and Obama continued it.
The ACA is not the largest tax increase in the history of
western civilization. More right-wing lies. But I’m the one being political. It
isn’t even the largest tax increase in the last 60 years. It’s the 10th. Behind
1.) the Revenue act of 1951, 2.) the Revenue Act of 1950, 3.) the Temporary
Surcharge of 1968, 4.) the Excess Profits Tax of 1950, 5.) the Reagan Tax
Increase of 1982, 6.) the Tax Increase of 1966, 7.) the Oil Windfall Tax of
1980, 8.) the Clinton Tax Increase of 1993, and 9.) the Bush Tax Increase of
1990.
But hey, don’t let facts get in the way of your blind
partisanship.
I agree the ‘super committee’ was stupid (and cowardly) on
Obama’s part. He should have known by then that Republicans would never
compromise.
The Ryan-Wyden plan, you say? First, it has specifically to do
with Medicare reform, not health care reform. Second, the way it works is by
tying the subsidy to the second-least expensive plan in the market. That way,
the system gives beneficiaries a financial incentive to choose the cheaper
plan. That is EXACTLY how the Affordable Care Act works. The difference is that
Ryan-Wyden would include a massive public option in Medicare, which is
something Conservatives REFUSED to allow in the ACA. So, why is that “a real
roadmap for a bi-partisan solution to the most predictable debt crisis we've
seen in history” but the ACA is bad? Maybe because of that little public option
thing Republicans were vehemently against? And Obama pussed out of defending? [Actually, that’s not the Ryan-Wyden plan. That was
the plan originally put together by Ryan and Wyden, but Ryan changed it when he
put it in his budget plan.]
The ACA will be paid for. "1000% deficit spending?" Well,
that’s a realistic number I should totally take seriously. Here are just a few
of the ways in which it will be paid:
--Increasing the Medicare tax on high-income households
--An excise tax on insurers offering high-cost health
insurance policies
--Penalties for those who don’t get coverage (except for
those whose incomes are low enough that they are not required to file a tax
return)
--Requiring employers with more than 50 workers to pay a
penalty if they don’t provide health insurance coverage to their employees
--Imposing new fees on the health industry (companies such
as drug makers, medical device makers, and insurers will pay new fees in
exchange for the new business that will come their way as a result of the
expected influx of Americans who will obtain health coverage and use more
medical services)
--Trimming various health-related tax breaks
--Creating a new long-term care insurance program (those who
enroll pay premiums into the program for at least five years before being
eligible for benefits as seniors)
But again, don’t let any facts get in the way of your
misinformed partisan opinions.
As for the US being the country with the highest corporate
taxes – that’s a little complicated. Stick with me…
Yes, the statutory corporate tax rate in America is almost
the highest (behind Japan.). However, due to multitudinous and ever-growing
loopholes, credits, deductions and highly utilized overseas tax havens, the effective
tax rate dropped to a 40-year low of 12.1% in 2011. Facts Republicans like to ignore
so they can protect their wealthy corporate donors. On top of this lowest
effective tax rate, corporate profits have been reaching record-breaking
numbers since the recession. (This wealth does not trickle down. Ever. For a
fact.) The fact is, the US taxes its corporations less and also raises less
revenue from corporate taxes than most countries. It would be possible to raise
revenue to help reduce the deficit by lowering corporate taxes, though. The
trick is to close loopholes and tax havens – but Republicans consider those tax
increases. It’ll never happen.
Noel, you cannot be taken seriously if you quote the Clown
Prince of Ass Clowns, Donald Trump. Three year old, out of date news, sprinkled
with lies is quite laughable. [Actually, that
“We’re going to be gifted” speech was by Senate candidate, Dr. Barbara Bellar, not Trump.
As with most internet quotes, it was misattributed
to Dinglenuts Squirrelwig since he’s famous. But no matter who said it, it’s
still complete bullshit.]
As far as Jindal and other Republican Governors (and some
Democrats afraid of losing an election), refusing to implement the ACA in their
states - Congress passed the law, the President signed it, and the Supreme
Court upheld it. It is Constitutional. (Republicans LOVE the Constitution.
Unless they disagree with it.) If the states never had to adhere to federal
law, the United States of America would be 50 separate, ununited countries. And
at the end of the day, they will not turn down the subsidies that help their
citizens. They may deride them as socialist or satanic or a failure or
whatever, like they have in the past and insist they will not accept them under
any circumstances, but just like little hypocrite Bobby Jindal did with the stimulus, they’ll fucking accept it.
Hasselhoff
Bill - that is not how the ACA works. The ACA, should it
survive repeal in January under President Romney [!]
does not pay for itself. [Unlike the Afghanistan & Iraq wars and the 2001 & 2003 Bush Tax Cuts?] Prior to the decision last week it was already 2.7
trillion in new debt - and that's from the non partisan CBO. And yes the 21 new
taxes with the bill will top any tax increase in world history - not just
merely western civilization. Saying that it's deficit neutral and that now 50
million will be "covered" when they won't - doesn't make it so. What
will you say to the 75% of employer based per tax dollar premiums who will lose
their coverage now and be subject to a tax if they don't replace it? Do you
say, sorry but the greatest president who ever walked the earth must have his
legacy over peoples lives. What do you say now to the middle class who will be
subsidizing freebies to people who live at 400x higher than the poverty line?
I'll tell you what Bill. Since your the champion for getting people to pay for
other people, I'll make you a deal. I'll pay for your insurance if you pay my
Mortgage, 'k? ;)
Bill, a little about WHO's [World
Health Organization] hidden agenda of collectivism, one worldism
(aka statism, marxism, liberalism - its all the same...) and blatant
anti-american bias:
Taxmageddon: All ObamaTax all the time. And not a partisan
lie. This from the non partisan CBO. And who pays for it? The very people Obama
promised would not get one nickel of an increase in taxes. This will be
remembered as his "read my lips" moment.
tax, tax, tax, tax and oh - even more tax...
Bill Mancuso
Obviously, you did not look at the original CBO report.
Rather, you were told what the CBO said through some right-wing filter. If you
had bothered to read the ACTUAL fucking report,
you would know $2.7 trillion is a cherry-picked number and is NOT the budget
analysis. Also, it's only the 2012 budget. It has NOTHING to do with the ACA. Let me try to explain it as simply as I can
for you. After Clinton left office with the country surplus-spending (taking in
more revenue than it was spending), Bush came in an fucked the country with 2
unpaid-for wars and 2 unpaid-for tax cuts, which flipped us back to massive
deficit-spending, which resulted in adding $5 fucking trillion to the national debt,
bringing it to $11 trillion. Obama is bringing this deficit-spending spiral
DOWN each year, aiming us back toward surplus-spending. The CBO says the 2012
Obama budget LOWERS the national deficit. We're still deficit-spending, but it
is less each year instead of more. The total over the next 10 years is $2.7
trillion, but that is a declining number, pointing us toward budget surplus.
The truth is, federal spending is decreasing every year under Obama, no matter
the repetition of lies from the right.
And like I already said, repealing the ACA would add $230
billion to the deficit, according to the actual CBO report.
ALL of the new taxes in the ACA totaled together add up to
be the 10th largest tax. No matter how hard you stick your fingers in your ears
to block out facts and cling to partisan right-wing lies.
What do I say about 75% of employers losing coverage? I say
you are repeating a right-wing extremist worst-case apocalyptic scenario lie,
which is about 98% exaggerated. And defies what the actual CBO and ACA says.
What do I say to employers being taxed if they don't provide
health insurance - the Employer Shared Responsibility Payment provision? I say
employers will still provide health insurance for their employees. Why wouldn't
they? Why are you deliberately making up highly improbable extreme worst-case
scenarios (maybe you're just repeating what drug addict Limbaugh told you) for
the sole purpose of being partisan?
You play this as my belief: "[Obama,] the greatest
president who ever walked the earth must have his legacy over peoples
lives." I have clearly stated that is not my belief. You are pathetically
trying to make me seem like I blindly love Obama as much as you blindly hate
him. I have clearly stated that I am simply relaying the facts to counter all
of the right-wing partisan lies you are repeating. Never once have I said I
endorse the ACA. Like I said: Hitler had a little mustache. Relaying this fact
does not mean I support Hitler. Please stop being foolish. It makes you appear
foolish.
What do I say to the middle class who will be subsidizing
free health care to those who don't pay for it? I say THAT IS THE EXACT SYSTEM
WE HAVE NOW, GENIUS. THE ACA ATTEMPTS TO END THAT SYSTEM BY FORCING PEOPLE
PARTICIPATE IN THE FREE MARKET BY PURCHASING HEALTH CARE. THE EXACT KIND OF
"PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY" THAT REPUBLICANS LOVE SO MUCH. THE EXACT
OPPOSITE OF A 'GOVERNMENT TAKEOVER OF HEALTH CARE.' Sorry for shout-typing. I
was hoping it would make you pay attention to a fact for once. I can dream,
can't I?
You, Sir, are insanely partisan.
And since you're offering, I'd rather you paid my mortgage
if I could pay for your health care. That's a much better deal for me.
And again, yes, America has great health care services - FOR
THOSE WHO CAN AFFORD IT. How many times must I repeat that fact? Are you
suggesting that poor foreigners should show up and demand free health care that
I must pay for with my taxes? It is wealthy foreigners who have the cashola to
pay for the great American health services money can provide.
The article you
posted by Citizens' Council for Health Freedom, founded by Twila Brase, a
right-wing insurance corporation shill and Tea Party rally speech-giver and
anti 'Obamacare' activist, fails to mention she puts corporations over care.
There is no anti-American bias to the WHO. This article intentionally ignores
the affordability factor and focuses solely on quality of the care itself.
And collectivism, statism, Marxism and liberalism are words
that all have different meanings. In your zeal to blindly attack what you are
told to fear, you appear increasingly foolish. Nothing but more misinformed,
blind right-wing brainwashed repeatings. Look something up before you blindly
repeat it.
The article you posted by the extremely partisan right-wing
think tank, American Enterprise Institute is a lie. Those are not the CBO
numbers. Go to the CBO for the ACTUAL numbers. You have given me more
manipulated bullshit. Look something up before you blindly repeat it.
The article you posted by the extremely partisan right-wing
Investors.com is chock full of lies, which have been circulating within the
right-wing bubble. I have already explained that the total ACA taxes are not
the biggest in the universe. (see above) How can companies blame layoffs they
have already made on a tax that won't happen for another six months? And a
future 2.3% tax increase is not going to force layoffs and move companies
overseas. More nonsensical extreme apocalyptic fear-mongering. Highly
profitable corporations did not lay off thousands and move overseas under the
tyrannical Clinton tax years. You have given me more manipulated bullshit. Look
something up before you blindly repeat it.
I repeat: You, Sir, are insanely partisan.
Just because you enjoy the taste of the bullshit the
right-wing is feeding you, doesn't mean I will.
And with that said, you obviously have nothing to offer but
easily refuted and debunked right-wing talking point lies, which are beginning
to bore me. As the ranked #1 in health care, socialist French say, adieu.
Hasselhoff
I can't believe you cited Rex Nutting - LOL.
Partisan left wing hack who wouldn't know the truth if he tripped over it. [Rex Nutting has been considered a partisan hack ever
since he wrote his May 22, 2012 column, “Obama Spending Binge Never Happened.”
Republicans claim anything that disagrees with their version of reality is a
lie. Here
is another article that basically says the same thing: Obama increased government
spending at a lower rate than every President since Hoover.] How do
you expect to be taken seriously if you can't understand that 2.7 to 3 trillion
in borrowing from china is not adding to the debt? [Currently,
China holds $1.16T of our debt. But that’s just a fact. Ignore it. As for
borrowing from China, I see the right-wing fear-mongering is working on you.
But, it’s actually a good thing for the economy.] Obviously you missed the fact that states will no longer be
penalized for not expanding medicare / medicaid spending and the loss of the
force of exchanges - a huge other "funding mechanism" now gone. [Oh, for fuck’s sake. I didn’t miss anything. You’re
fear-mongering again. MedicareAdvocacy.org: Medicare Facts and Fiction: Costs and Spending Edition
] But that's even before The 2.7 trillion in real debt, according to non
partisan CBO - will now be more in the neighborhood of 3 trillion - while still
leaving out 20 million people and driving up premiums for those people lucky
enough to still have their insurance. [First,
this $2.7T number you keep repeating: It’s actually $2.6T and it’s not what
Obamacare will cost, it’s what the health care industry makes per year. But yeah, just repeat a Republican lie. The real number is $1.1Billion. Billion
with a “B.” Here
is the ACTUAL fucking CBO report.] Bill, is it possible that you can
disagree without being disagreeable? [Is it
possible you can present a fact in which to agree upon?] There is no
need to "mark territory" here. I notice you like to call people you
disagree with "Partisan" [Just when
you incessantly repeat debunked right-wing lies as truth.] - yet you
do not acknowledge your rather passionate partisan rhetoric [Facts are partisan?] that undermines any
limited credibility that you had by citing far left wing sources like think
progress and Rex Nutting - who just got caught red handed not knowing what
baseline budgeting was [No. Republicans are
making shit up and you are believing them without checking to see if they are
really true.] - and this is the wise sage you quote? ROFL!!!!!!!!!
Nutting also fell for a bogus Pelosi chart that was embarrasingly discredited
showing that Obama was a great spending cutter (when he raised spending 25%
across the board and built in 3 annual 1.5 trillion deficits) - further ROFL! [True. Sort of. Obama only increased non-defense
discretionary spending by 24% from $434 billion in 2008 to $537 billion in
2010. Not “across the board” spending. It was spent on things such as
education, health and housing. In context, and adjusted for inflation and population growth, that’s the same exact
amount spent as 10 years ago. Cockhole. And yes, there were 3 annual deficits
of around $1.5T. Might that have something to do with the recession, plus the
housing crash, plus the financial crisis, plus the increased unemployment
garnering less revenue, plus the Bush Tax Cuts, plus the two unpaid-for wars –
all generously bestowed upon America by President George W. Bush? (Yes, all those things he did are still and always will be his fault.) Plus, the
current, mouth-breathing Teabagger-Republicans in Congress refusing to raise taxes on
millionaires, yet simultaneously subsidizing billion-dollar banks and oil
companies? Oh, and that’s not my “passionate partisan rhetoric.” That’s precisely what the CBO says.] Now you have just provided what a reasonable person can safely
call "insanely partisan" - and be accurate when saying it. [Yes, for a person who is reasonably ignoring facts
that exist in the real world.] You quote someone who does not even
understand basic economics. [According to
math-hating, truth-denying Republicans.] Compare that to the sources that I have
provided and they are not debunked, not smacked down - they are real numbers by
respected sources and journalists - and you have done nothing to rebut except
offer silly far left wing links that don't even have a slight resemblance to
reality. I can see why this makes you frustrated. [Yes.
I get frustrated when someone completely ignores the truth when it is handed to
them as you do. You present articles that blatantly lie about CBO numbers and
when presented with the actual CBO numbers from the actual CBO, you proclaim
your false numbers from right-wing liars to be the ones that are true and not
the actual CBO numbers. But I’m the partisan. Wonderful.] A bit like
Yosemite Sam when Bugs Bunny gives you a big sloppy wet kiss of truth and a
stick of dynamite. [Yes. Just like that. What
the fuck is up, Doc?] And it causes you to lash out like a child and
call fact based articles "right wing lies" without providing examples
of why they are lies nor any credible citations showing where those facts have
erred. [Well, except for all the times I do, but
you’d have to not ignore my childish lashings since they disprove your debunked anal leakage.] Its not just that they are well researched and not facing
corrections from ombudsmen - which is a 20x event per day with papers like the
Times or WashPo or Thinkprogress - a thoroughly discredited propoganda mill. [Discredited by whom? The same sources you use that
post false CBO numbers?] Disagree all you want. But ObamaCare IS A
THREE TRILLION DOLLAR HOLE that is NOT PAID FOR. [It’s
true. You wrote it in caps. How can I deny yell-typing?] It's no
longer in dispute. There is not ANY EXAMPLE where you can FACTUALLY cite
deficit reduction in this administration [LA Times: Federal deficit hits 5-year low, but cuts drag economy
Investors.com: The Deficit Chart That Should Embarrass Budget Hawks
CBO: The Budget and Economic Outlook: Fiscal Years 2013 to 2023]
(that has now spent more than Washington to Bush combined) [Goddammit. Another right-wing talking point is that
Obama has spent more money than all the Presidents combined. You know how they
come up with this bullshit? I do. For all the Presidents except Obama, they
just count public debt. For Obama, they add public and private debt together.
These numbnuts hear Sean Hannity proclaim Obama spent more than everybody and
just accept it. Oh, and spending a fucklot less than Republicans
would probably help more in the deficit reduction arena if Republicans wouldn’t
block ending tax breaks for millionaires.] - not in ACA [Healthcare costs money, it isn’t free. And the ACA
lowers health care costs for everyone, which consequently lowers debt. However,
repealing it as Republicans symbolically voted 33 fucking times to do (instead of ever
once putting forth a jobs bill) will add $100B to the deficit – according to the actual CBO.], not in the stimulus bribe to public sector unions, [There was no bribe.] not in stealth cap
and trade via EPA, [Cap & Trade. The
Republican policy developed by a Reagan White House lawyer
and first implemented by President H.W. Bush with his Clean Air Act of 1990 to great success. Felt any acid rain lately? Not
since the late 90’s.] one could go
on all day. […making shit up to support
biased, uninformed opinions.] Instead of attacking the messenger,
you might sound less partisan and even a tad credible if you engaged in an
adult conversation. Cite some real sources that back up your wild claims. But
you can't. [I can’t when you ignore all the times
I do.] Because even the administration can't sell Obamacare to the
two thirds of the country that oppose it. [When
people are asked if they like the Affordable Care Act, the majority says ‘no.’
But when they are asked about each individual aspect separately, the majority
says ‘yes’ to each and every one to each and every one. It seems only that people have been
conditioned by Republican brainwashing to hate the words ‘Obamacare’ or ‘Affordable Care
Act,’ but not the actual contents of the bill.] I have not called your assertions lies one time. [Was that because they’re not?] What I did
do was calmly challenge them and very effectively rebut them. [In your mind.] And it bothers you. Don't
let it bother you. Take a breath. Think about what you want to defend. Defend
liberalism. Defend tyranny. [Liberalism is not
tyranny, you twuntsack.] Its what you believe in passionately. You tell
us this with every post. You believe that stealing half a trillion from the
seniors who raised us to pay for younger obama voters is sound policy - so
defend it. You believe that the corrupt practice of double counting
"savings in medicare fraud' - is sound economic policy. Defend it.
Sebellius got caught red handed lying to a Congressional oversite committee
hearing on it. Its not even debatable. So defend it. You believe that people
who are of means and live at 400 times above the poverty level - should have
free healthcare off the backs of the middle class. Defend it. Tell all your
friends why such class warfare is so visionary for the American Dream. Cry it
from the mountaintops. It's still incoherent. It's still the worst form of
politics. It's still pitting groups of Americans against each other. But you
are free to speak your mind. So please - keep defending tyranny and Orwellian
tactics of "pay no attention to what I'm doing style jedi mind
tricks" that work only on sheep ready for the slaughter. Oh and give my
best to Rex - ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Still laughing at that one! Thanks for the
unintended laugh. appreciate it ;) [You deluded,
mouth-breathing, right-wing, talking-point-repeating moron.]
*****
***** ** ***** *****
And for the record, I signed the petition.
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