This conversation, I think, is the most reality denying-est one I’ve ever been involved in. No matter what I say or prove or disprove or provide information directly from the source for – it is denied, ignored or laughed at as being crazy. And then dump trucks full of bullshit are emptied out all over the conversation and touted as fragrant petunias.
Ah, Republicans (I mean, professed non-partisans), the bubble in which you live is so impenetrable.
I apologize for the length of this post, but hey, I haven't posted anything in over a month, so I'm actually under my monthly word quota.
(Spoiler Alert: Romney lost the election.)
Dear Governor, you are the Governor, not the President of Louisiana. Why you would deny the citizens you are sworn to speak for and protect, the ability to be healthy is beyond me. That is not your right, sir. It is ours.
Defend Obamacare in Louisiana
I just signed a petition to Governor Bobby Jindal:
Governor Jindal, please do your duty and allow Louisiana residents to get the affordable health care they need by implementing the provisions of the Affordable Care Act. We need insurance relief in Louisiana and we need the proposed increase in federal spending on Medicaid. Governor, please honor your Hippocratic Oath and help us all to live healthier in Louisiana.
Despite the recent Supreme Court ruling, Governor Bobby Jindal still refuses to implement the Affordable Care Act in Louisiana. This has been deemed the law of the land, but it appears that Gov. Jindal would prefer many people in his state to remain without necessary health care, rather than damage his political chances. My husband and I were nearly bankrupted because of my husband's recent heart attack. We need Obamacare in Louisiana, and we need it NOW.
Because he believes that the cost will bankrupt his state. He may be right.
No one knows how this plan will be paid for.
The ACA will not bankrupt the state. And it is absolutely known how it will be paid for. These are Republican lies. The one and only reason Republicans are against their health care plan that they came up with and have been pushing for almost 20 years now is that it gives Obama political points since he's the one who passed it. It's hard to support the ACA if your stated goal is to prevent Obama from becoming a two-term President. But hey, let's all put Party before country like the Republicans enjoy doing so much.
Oh c'mon, guys! That is not a valid response! There's a million ways to pay for this! For starters, how bout actually taxing corporations?! How bout .05% increase on people that make over $250k or fuck over $1MM? I would happily pay .05% more so the people of my country can stop living in fear, so children can see doctors, so my fellow humans can be healthier more productive beings of society, thus, make more money. God!
If anyone is actually interested in what the ACA is about as opposed to repeating partisan lies, have a go at this...
Politics will always play a role, but to think only one side does that is silly. I am NOT partisan (are you?). [Yes, you are. Incredibly so. And no, I am not. I'm a Freethinker.] It is unfair to say that if you have honest concerns about the law, that somehow you are uncaring. [It is unfair to push ulterior motive-based, biased misinformation as legitimately honest concern.] We all want better access to better care for everyone. How do we get there is the question. I am sure there are good parts of the law and bad. How can ANY law that is a zillion pages not have some of both. I just have trouble with bigger govt and will never believe that bigger govt. will help us regardless of party. Ill be happy to read the link, but surely it will paint one perspective.
The Affordable Care Act will paint the perspective of the Affordable Care Act without being filtered through any talking heads. Your preemptive excuse paints you as partisan.
ummm no, I just commented before I opened the link. Amazing the anger thrown at me for having a different thought than you. [Amazing how people who know they are partisan, yet claim they are not, seem to think everything I say to them is in anger. Feeling guilty? Why didn’t you read the link? Did you not want the opinion you were told to have be shattered by facts?]
It is the bill itself. It is not being told what the bill says by a partisan opinion. How is it that relaying plain simple facts seem 'angry' to you?
Well, let's not forget that they seemed to have figured it out perfectly in Massachusetts! You know, that guy Mittens, everyone's been talking about lately, I believe he's a republican? You might have heard of him. Yeah, he figured it out just fine in Massachusetts.
Did I say I love Mitt? [Stop obfuscating. Her obvious point was not your love of Mitt. Her point was that a Republican governor implemented the Republican health care plan in his state that Obama wants to use as a model for the country. It covers 98% of the population and has about an 85% popularity rate. But suddenly, the Democrat wants it and it’s socialism that will bankrupt the country.]
oh, Wormer, that was just me being sarcastic in general...not directed at you at all. I totally know you weigh both sides of the coin before deciding how you roll :-). [She’s lying to keep the peace. I have no such worries.]
Not the bill, the rest of your language. [Yes. My scary fact-talk.] I have concerns with massive govt intervention in probably the biggest sector of our economy. I want ALL people to have affordable access to world-class health care. I do not trust govt to get it done, ANY govt... this will not be a democratic run plan or a republican one. It is simply a federal program. I am not "repeating partisan lies" as you say, I just have some concerns with a 1,000 page law that no one really read before they signed it. The implications of what will follow will be interesting to say the least, but in the end, I just dont trust govt. to do things efficiently and competently. [Yes, Republicans have been told to never trust the government, so you blindly repeat it. If Republicans think government is bad, why do they want to be in it? To make it bad? They’re doing a hell of a job.]
I heard [on FOX “News”] that no one took the time to read the bill as it was too long and complicated. [To be fair, that part's true.] That no one knows how it's going to be paid for. That it adds millions of new patients but no new doctors but 16000 new IRS agents. And finally [I also heard on FOX “News”] that they can't figure out how to save social security which they should figure out before this. And I'm not a republican so hold your hate. [Libertarian?] I just don't think we should fuck with the health care system that everyone in the world comes here for. [And only the rich can afford. It’s about accessibility. Not quality. And yes, when I point out that you are repeating lies and I correct you, that means I hate you. I'm amazed you drew the line between facts and hatred so easily.]
But sometimes...government does get it right. I just got my mail :-)
post office is bankrupt too. [Intentionally so by Republican legislation. I’ll get to it in a bit.]
[This next section in red I somehow missed during the original discussion. I’ll address the nonsense forthwith. (I have never before in my life used the term “forthwith.” EVER. Probably because it isn’t 1835.)]
** ** ** ** **
Exactly Noel. But we do know that half a trillion in Medicare has been stolen from the seniors who raised us [We do? How? If you’re going to repeat a talking point, please also provide some information.] along with Sebellius openly double counting projected "savings" in medicare fraud. [No. Representative John Shimkus from Illinois said Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sibelius said she was double counting. She tried to explain, but as is customary during witch trials, Shimkus asked her to explain, then cut her off and he proclaimed she is double counting. FOX “News” and the right used this as “proof” of double counting. Here is the video. The truth is that the money isn’t being taken away from Medicare recipients to fund Obamacare. The $500B is cut out of Medicare fraud and overbilling and then applied to Obamacare. This will keep the costs of both Medicare and Obamacare down. But gold star for repeating an unsubstantiated right-wing talking point.] If someone can actually point to the time when exactly the government ever rooted out fraud and then applied savings to the actual debt - do let me know - I have a bridge to sell you made of straw. [Reuters: U.S. charges more than 100 for Medicare fraud schemes] Further, we now know $2.7 trillion will be spent with money we don't have across ten years for only 6 actual years of "services". [That is a misdirection. In 2010, it was planned for most of the ACA to start in 2014 to give time for the states to implement the program. However, many aspects began right away. Republicans are saying that four year span doesn't count. Also, contrary to right-wing lies that Obamacare will cost even more than originally projected, the CBO estimates the ACA will reduce the deficit and cost even LESS than originally projected.] Yet 20 million will still be uninsured. So even the stated goal of universal healthcare is a non starter. [True. Republicans blocked and Obama cowered at both the single-payer and public options.] In actuality, if you read the decision, "insurance exchanges" are no longer required to be set up by the states anymore since the blackmail provision (punishing states for not expanding medicare dollars - that they can neither afford nor print money for - as will the Fed is intent on for "healthcare reform" if its not repealed in full). [This is just gibberish in talking point form. There are still exchanges. And it’s Medicaid, not Medicare. And there is no punishment – the Supreme Court said so. And the Fed pays 90%-100% of costs. And opting out would drive UP costs. ] So Jindall, Scott of FL, Christie of NJ and surprise surprise, even some Democrat governors also are delaying the implementation of exchanges themselves till they see whether Obama and this law survive past November 6. [No. Democrats are not delaying. The process is complicated, so it’s taking longer than the original expected four years. Kathleen Sibelius sent letters to all Governors extending the deadline to submit their plans for the exchange. Republicans are grandstanding but are, however, going to cave on their recalcitrance. Just like Christie already has.] So Jindahl is actually representing the best interests of the [deluded right-wing Teabaggers in the] state. The biggest mistake people make is thinking that Obamacare is about care. It is not. It is about expanding the powerbase of the federal government further into your lives the way FDR did by expanding the welfare state. [By forcing you to purchase private corporation health insurance? And yeah, FDR destroyed America. What a dismal time for the USA after his reformation.] And yet, 20 million will still be uninsured. And those who still have employer based policies now - more than 50% will lose them- by design. [No. They won’t. By design.] Its bad enough people will lose their insurance because of Obamacare [Computer says, “no.” ] - but when you take into consideration that these are pre-tax insurance premiums - people will now have to buy more expensive insurance - with the money that is left over after the taxman gets to them. [No.] So they'll be paying far more for far less [No.] - while the bottom 40% of wage earners will get "free insurance" off the middle class taxpayer's backs [No.] Those are the real "free riders". If we'd had read the bill before we'd passed it - we'd have seen it. Myths: "If you like your doctor you can keep him". Nope. In fact, we're going to have a doctor shortage. JAMA predicts up to a 33% shortage in the short term. [That has absolutely nothing to do with Obamacare. They’ve been saying this for almost 20 years. And it’s not true.] "If you like your insurance plan you can keep it" - nope. [Yes. ] Truths: This "affordable healthcare act" will hit the middle class taxpayer right in the wallet [False. The ACA is designed so you can keep your plan unless payments go up and coverage goes down - then the ACA will replace those lost benefits at a lower cost.] - precisely at the time we are headed to a second dip of a recession and an anemic 1.9% growth rate [True.] with real unemployment at 14.3%. [“Real” meaning “Republican math.” It’s 7.9% outside of the Republ-O-Sphere.] Big big truth: The sleazy politicians that forced this patchworked frankenstien of a bill through bribery (The Louisiana Purchase - Landriu, The Cornhusker Kickback to Nelson, The FL "gator aid" bribe to Sen. Nelson - exempting FL seniors from the above mentioned medicare theft - which will now go to younger citizens) [Not one of those things happened. They were issues that all fell through, but FOX continued to play it like they happened. They did not.] have all exempted themselves from participating in this plan - they will keep their goldplated insurance programs that pay for everything from a hangnail to top-shelf cancer treatments - and you and I will be footing the bill - they will not pay one red cent.) [They are not exempt. Newt Gingrich's lie was debunked three years ago. Didn't they tell you about it on FOX "News?" For fuck’s sake.] I have a feeling this election there will be a conversation - are you for a free market economy with market based solutions such as health savings accounts, tort reform and inter-state commerce allowing for greater insurance cost reductions - or are you for a european style welfare state that will implode under its own immorality of un-funded liabilities that stretch as far as the eye can see? My guess is that there are far more people interested in a representative republic than a bananna republic. We'll know in four months one way or the other. [What the fuck fucking fear-mongering nonsense was that?]
delivering mail is quite simple compared to HC. [“I just dont trust govt. to do things efficiently and competently.” Except when you’re proven wrong?]
Yes, Jan - but I just wish the mailman could forget some of my bills.... As to your point about mittens - yes, he has a problem and has splainin' to do. MASS MittCare failed and he needs to own up to that. [What. Fucking. World. Do. You. Live. In?] He was for the Mitt mandate - and needs to splain that as well. He has said lamely that what is good for MAss may not be good for the masses (get it... masses....) and that the states are a laborotory for trying things out - but that the Feds role is not to do that kind of sweeping legislation. He is getting a bit more correct on the "tax" aspect and his messaging is perhaps a bit less cloudy than last week - but it is better than Team "It's a tax, it's not a tax" dancing on the head of a pin in terms of definitions. Partisanship always gets people turned off - and I agree with you on that. It would be great to have a national discussion on the issue on the merits. The "affordable care act" was rammed through with a deep partisan divide and debate pretty much shut. [Yes, the Affordable Care Act – the Republican plan created in 1994 by the right-wing think-tank, the Heritage Foundation, as an alternate to Hillarycare, touted for almost 20 years by the Republicans, implemented in Massachusetts to an 85% popularity rate, covering 98% of the state – was a failure in Mass and rammed through with newfound "deep partisan divide" – Republicans suddenly hating their own plan they loved for two decades before the black guy agreed with it.] Now - over the next four months - we're going to actually have that debate. Lets hope it don't get ugly...
BTW there are many of us on the repeal side who do not want to have those less fortunate to be without care. We just believe that there is a smarter way to do it rather than basically putting everyone on a - well lets call it what it will be - a big government version of medicare [Medicare works. Quite well. At low costs. Hence the frequent calling for “Medicare for all.” Also - what do you mean by "a big government version of Medicare?" Medicare is a big government program. A big government version of a big government program? Douchetard.] - spread out so far and wide that your actual "care" will be rationed out just by the sheer size of our nation (350 milllion citizens) [311 million. You added almost two Australia's to our population, you uneducated twit.] and still no way to pay for it. [More with the repetition of fear-mongered FOX talking points without basis in fact.] Estonia managed to get a form of universal healthcare done and manage to still have a 7.5% growth rate (the only euro member to do so) by doing guess what? Being energy friendly and having a tax payer friendly relationship to the public sector unions and having actual parity - rather than the insanity that has been allowed to happen in Calif, MI, WI (no longer thank goodness) and other states. When I hear people say we "should be more like Europe" I say, well, look to estonia... [Where do I begin… So, progressives in Estonia did all the things Republicans are making a sport out of blocking? California is on track for a budget surplus. Wisconsin was doing OK until Republican Governor Scott Walker, almost recalled, did all the things Republicans do, attacking teachers, unions, workers and the middle class, raising taxes on the middle class & cut social programs while giving huge tax cuts to giant corporations. And Michigan, unemployment is higher than the national average, Republican Rick Snyder and his Fascist 'emergency management' bullshit plus all the usual teacher, union, worker attacks, raise middle class tax, cut social program funding and huge tax breaks for the wealthy – all the usual Republican austerity measures that have been failing in America (and Europe) for decades.]
[OK. That was everything I missed the first go-around.]
** ** ** ** **
Yes, just like Republican politicians say (then tell you to vote for them so they can be a part of the government), the government is inefficient and incompetent. As evidenced by all the branches of the military, police, fire, post, Medicare, library, 911 emergency, interstate highway system, National Weather Service, the GI Bill, the CDC and every other efficient and competent government run system that needs to be ignored in order to believe Republican lies. The Bush administration forced the Post Office to pay all their pensions up front for some reason, which is obviously unsustainable and is why that is screwed up. [The Bush-era Republican controlled congress wrote a law forcing the Post Office to have 75 years worth of pensions in escrow - The Postal Accountability and Enhancement Act of 2006. The Postal Accountability and Enhancement Act of 2006. No company in the world does that. People who aren’t even born yet that will work for the PO have their pensions ready. The reason is the Post Office is the largest union in the U.S. and we all know how Republicans hate when employees have bargaining power. Plus, they’ve been trying to privatize the PO so a corporation can make a profit instead of the completely self-sustained, non tax-payer funded, government program working efficiently and cheaply. How much does it cost to mail a letter anywhere in the U.S.? How much to FedEx or UPS that same letter? Which is cheaper – the completely self-sustained, non tax-payer funded, government program, or the privately-owned corporation? And no, the Post Office was not going bankrupt. That is a Republican lie designed to make you want to not like the Post Office. If the PAEA was not enacted by Republicans in 2006, the Post office would have a $1.5 Billion SURPLUS today. Fuckers.]
'Hearing' that no one read it and 'hearing' that no one knows how it will be paid for does not equal the truth. No new IRS agents will be hired. That's a lie. It does add doctors. There is not a problem with Social Security. As for 'everyone in the world coming here for health care' - you are confusing the advanced level of care available with the ability to pay for it - which, up until now, 50 million Americans couldn't.
For a couple of people claiming to not be Republican, I keep hearing a lot of thoroughly debunked Republican lies being casually tossed around as facts.
HasselhoffBill, I'll answer your points in a friendly non partisan way. First of all, 911, police, fire - they are at the state level - funded by state residents - not part of the discussion really. Everyone agrees those are vital and we pay for them - happily so. [I see. The parts of the efficiently run government that don’t support your right-wing, yet "non-partisan," biased view don’t count.] But it is fair for the taxpayer to ask for parity. i.e., the tax payer often does not get anywhere near half the deal the public sector unions have gotten (retirement at 50 or 55 with lifetime pensions and benefits). They just merely ask for public sector unions to kick in - not even anywhere close to where the average tax payer kicks in for theirs. 5% vs 50%? i'd take that deal and still kick in 10-25 on my own - its called responsibility over taking from the makers ;) [Again with the right-wing, yet non-partisan, attack on unions. Yes, it’s horrible that after working for 40 years of your life you are allowed to retire with $175,000 per year pension. You should have to work at least 60 years for your corporate employer and wonder if you'll have a pension at all since they eliminated defined-benefit pension plans. How dare unions fight for the workers! How sucky it was for the unions to fight for 40-hour work weeks, child labor laws, paid vacations, time and a half overtime, weekends, bargain for raises! In states without “Right to Work” laws ( laws that protect corporations and strip unions of power), even wages for non-union workers are higher. So, your complaint is that unions are good and they help the worker, so that’s bad? I know you’re non-partisan and all, but you sure keep repeating right-wing nonsense.]
As for Social Security and Medicare going broke - they most assuredly are - this is not from those rascally republicans but also from democrats who get it like Ron Wyden of OR. But don't ask them - talk to the people in the know: the trustees of Social Security and Medicare have been saying this loud and clear. If you'd like to learn more about it - you can from this Politico (very left of center outlet - to avoid partisanship). The truth is inescapable unfortunately. I'd love to live in a land of make believe as well but when people say that social security is not in trouble - they are not looking at the facts...
[First, even though both Liberals and Conservatives say so, Social Security and Medicare are NOT fucking going broke. This is a fact that really exists in the really-real world. Republicans just keep saying this to turn people against these programs because they want to make them into corporate profit businesses. Second, no matter how many right-wingers try to portray Politico as left-wing because they don’t embrace fringe right-wing Teatard conspiracy theories, Politico is a right-of-center organization, founded by Reaganites. Another fact that really exists in the really-real world. Third, the author of this particular center-right Politico opinion piece is John C. Goodman – a Libertarian – a rascally Republican anarchist. Fourth, you are making it very difficult to continue believing you are non-partisan. Not only have you never once expressed anything liberal, let alone factual, but you seem to lovey-love-love debunked far right-wing bullshit.
Here are some items that explain ALL the facts about SS & Medicare – not just the cherry-picked statistics that seem to support your bullshit.
John C. Goodman:
- Libertarian economist.
- President of conservative think-tank, The National Center for Policy Analysis
- Research Fellow at conservative libertarian think-tank, The Independent Institute
- Rupert Murdock’s Wall Street Journal calls him the “father of Health Savings Accounts.”
- Health Savings Accounts are part of the unfunded Medicare Part D. Health Savings accounts benefits only young, healthy people who rarely need medical attention. This plan makes the health care system more expensive for everyone else.]
Bill, people are debating merits of the law here, no one is defending Bush or Republicans. There is plenty with that administration we didn't like either. But that is in the past and you're the only one introducing politics into the discussion. [If you say the Post Office is on track for failure, I’m going to point out the facts why. You can’t say I can’t bring up the past because it disagrees with you pretending to be non-partisan but still getting upset when I point out the right-wing bullshit you’re shoveling. This discussion exists BECAUSE OF politics, Capisce? Twunt.] Let go of the party allegiances, [Stop pushing extreme right-wing lies.] I promise it will be VERY liberating to hate them all. :) Military is one of the few agencies that show superior skill, cost-sensible? [No, not cost sensible. Any time someone suggests cutting out the military fat, Republicans scream “anti-American, socialist, communist Marxist!” Sorry for bringing up politics in this completely fucking political discussion.] IDK, but necessary (though we probably spend too much on wars and intervention than we should get involved in (yes, Bush) Police are local govt, fire is local govt, Medicare is Federal and is in shambles, [No. See through right-wing lies above.] Library is local, 911 is local, emergency is either local or private, highways are run by states, [No, the Dwight D. Eisenhower National System of Interstate and Defense Highways is a federal system authorized by the Federal Aid Highway Act of 1956.] NWS? that's a pretty simple system and relatively cheap, [The National Weather Service (the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration – NOAA) is simple and cheap? $6B, 20,000 full time employees, dozens of weather and beacon satellites, earthquake & tsunami detectors – fuck, I could go on for pages about what NOAA does. Google it yourself. Simple and cheap. You fucking - keepittogetherkeepittogetherkeepittogether.] GI bill provides funding for GIs but isnt a complicated regulatory system, CDC, I honestly have no idea how competent or efficient they are. [So, again, all the government agencies and programs that do work don’t count in your manufactured, factless, repeated right-wing talking point about government not ever working. I get it.] How will the Law add doctors? We will hand out medical degrees? [Already covered the doctor shortage lie.]
Bill - not one democrat [or Republican] read the bill. You can take that to the bank. Boehner was excoriated for even making the suggestion. John Conyers even famously said - we don't have time to read the bill and scoffed at the very notion that they should even have to...
_what ever happened to Obamas promise to post bills up online for five days? What ever happened to "i'll be the most transparent presidency in history"... oops ;) [Yeah. Obama lied about being completely transparent. Government will never be transparent, no matter what they say or who is in charge. And at around 1,000 pages, the ACA is a long bill, I’ll admit. But Congress doesn’t read most of the bills they do or don’t pass. These days, staff, lobbyists and think-tanks provide their own analysis to the politicians they own; Congress rarely reads anything. With over 2/3 of the year on their scheduled vacation, who has time? Besides, Conyers was correct. Even if they read it, they would need lawyers to explain most of it anyway.]
we shoulda passed Simpson-Bowles instead... then I would have been an Obama cheerleader. [Yeah, more right-wing – I mean “non-partisan” austerity measures. Massive cuts in social program spending and small tax increases. And no, you wouldn't have been an Obama cheerleader. You're complaining now about things he hasn't done. Why would that change for Simpson-Bowles? ]
Bill, you said "As for 'everyone in the world coming here for health care' - you are confusing the advanced level of care available with the ability to pay for it - which, up until now, 50 million Americans couldn't". First of all 50 million were not uninsured so lets put that old saw to rest. [Not according to facts OUTSIDE the Republ-O-Sphere. At the time of this discusson in July, 2012, it was 50 million uninsured. A few months later, some Obamacare provisions had kicked in, insuring about a million and a half more people.] The Census pointed out 10-14 million - mostly younger healthy people who chose not to take on that expense. When you say 50 million people are now insured [I never said that.] that doesn't even begin to pass the smell test. Again because of the medicare opt out of the states which was also in the decision last week - that means upwards of 20 million - likely more - will still be uninsured. [True. It’s estimated Obamacare will only cover 30 million more people. That’s because Obama backed down to Republicans and didn’t include a public option. But it has nothing to do with a Medicare opt-out.] This plan fixes nothing [If you consider 30 million extra people insured to be ‘nothing.’] and only increases costs [Not according to facts.] and drives down care [Not according to facts.] because when something is considered "free" [I guess if you consider being forced to participate in the free market system and purchase health insurance to be "free?"] guess what happens - everyone gets on line for the goodies. The new law will NOT bring in more doctors. Even those who didn't read the bill knew enough that this was going to be a problem and even their own "doc fix' did nothing to relieve the problem. Further according to the Association of American Medical Colleges there will be a shortage of 63,000 doctors by 2015 and 130,600 by 2025. Further, according to AMA Leader Cecil B. Wilson, MD - "there will be a deficiency of at least 125,000 physicians by 2025. But - we already have 22 states and 17 medical specialty societies reporting shortages. Despite the last-minute reprieve on SGR -- the apocryphally named sustainable growth rate formula -- many of us have been forced to limit the number of Medicare patients simply because we no longer can afford to serve them." You can argue the merits of what a doctor's role is in society, his or her oath and all that - but it doesn't take an 11 year old to see that when you squeeze their resources and have a government take over - there is no way to have quality / compassionate care. The human element is gone. The doctor patient relationship is forever tainted - that is - if you can get a doctor. People in med school are waiting out November as well and may change their career choices. The unintended effects of the "affordable healthcare act" is even giving rise to the trend of temporary doctors - which will only be a band-aid (pardon the pun) in the scheme of things.
You can wish Obama care to be many things. A cure all. A form of utopia. For it to be actually about care and not control... But you can wish for a unicorn too. It doesn't mean you'll get one... ;) [OK. First, I will concede that it doesn’t add more doctors. Having conceded that, I have also shown that there is no doctor shortage, so everything else you said is useless misinformation. Even from your right-wing Forbes fear-mongering misinformation extravaganza article. Second, the limiting of Medicare patients has been going on for almost 20 years and has nothing to do with Obamacare. Third, resources are not being squeezed and Obamacare (forcing people to purchase insurance from a corporation is institutionalizing capitalism) is the diametric opposite of a government takeover. Fourth, no quality/compassionate care, human element is gone (robot doctors?), doctor/patient relationship forever tainted – are you writing a melodrama? What the fuck are you on about? Fifth, no one, NO ONE called Obamacare a form of Utopia. Is that what FOX “News” is telling you Liberals are saying? That’s the problem with listening to what right-wing TV and radio tells you the other Party thinks instead of finding out from the other Party directly. Most Liberals and non-Conservatives are also disappointed with the outcome of Obamacare. But we at least understand that it's a start and can see its potential to be better. Sixth, Obamacare isn’t about care, it’s about control? Control of what, exactly? I’m not following that Conservative talking point.]
Third, you seem to have a misunderstanding of how European economies work. They’re free market capitalists as well. Please turn off FOX “News” and back away from the TV. Fourth, Liberals are not opposed to drilling oil. You have been yet again, misinformed. And taxpayer money was not wasted on green technologies. And there were no frauds. And there are no Obama campaign bundlers. But please, continue spouting (non-partisan) right-wing, thoroughly debunked lies. Fifth, you stated, “we throw billions of taxpayer money for solar and green energy frauds.” Of the 28 green companies that got a total of $26 Billion in total loans, only three (3) of them filed for bankruptcy: Solyndra, Beacon Power and Abound Solar, that’s under a 10% failure rate – lower than Congress expected. And only 4% of the money was lost – an incredibly small amount of the total. But far be it from Republicans to not take an opportunity to trump up bullshit that constituents like you will blindly repeat. Sixth, when you say “your side,” in referring to oil opposition, you are claiming to be right-wing and not non-partisan as you previously proclaimed. (Even though you misattribute me to being Liberal.) Gee, now I’m confused.]
Wormer I agree with you. While I did not think Bowles Simpson went nearly enough - they at least addressed the out of whack spending we have committed as yet unborn children to pay for the rest of their lives. [LA Times: Federal deficit hits 5-year low, but cuts drag economy] Obama completely punted on leadership on the issue as did both parties in congress with the temporary "super committee" which keeps kicking the can down the road. [Congress deadlocked, but it's Obama's fault. I see. When Gavrilo Princip murdered Archduke Franz Ferdinand and his wife, sparking World War I, was that Obama's fault as well?] If people actually read the proposals from democrat Ron Wyden (gasp) his partner Paul Ryan - we'd have a real roadmap for a bi-partisan solution to the most predictable debt crisis we've seen in history - which is about to be exacerbated by the largest tax increase - in the history of western civilization. okay - lunch hour over - that is the extent of knowledge I can contribute today ;) [First, Simpson-Bowles didn’t cut enough social programs? It wasn’t fascist enough? Second, Republicans oppose any tax increases, completely halting any progress ever, but it’s Obama’s fault? Third, as for the Mitt Romney LIE that Ron Wyden co-led a piece of legislation with that punk-ass bitch, Paul Ryan, that Republicans love to blindly repeat, this is what Wyden had to say about that, “Gov. Romney is talking nonsense. Bipartisanship requires that you not make up the facts. I did not ‘co-lead a piece of legislation.’ I wrote a policy paper on options for Medicare. Several months after the paper came out I spoke and voted against the Medicare provisions in the Ryan budget. Governor Romney needs to learn you don’t protect seniors by makings things up, and his comments today sure won’t help promote real bipartisanship."]
uh...Wormer...that was a joke. An attempt to lighten the mood. Pretty sure I get that Health Care doesn't compare to getting the mail.
fair enough, some don't ;)
Let me get this straight... So we're going to be "gifted" with a health care plan we are forced to purchase and fined if we don't, [The fine can’t be levied, so it’s a hollow threat.] which purportedly covers at least ten million MORE people [30 million] without adding a single new doctor, but provides for 16,000 new IRS agents, [No. More like 375 IRS agents. That lie was completely fabricated by the GOP.] written by a committee whose chairman says he doesn't understand it, passed by a congress that didn't read it but exempted themselves from it, [No, Congress did not exempt themselves from it. That’s a lie.] and signed by a president who smokes, [Used to smoke. And has nothing to do with anything.] with funding administered by a treasury chief who didn't pay his taxes for which we'll be taxed for four years before any benefits take effect, [No. Many benefits started immediately.] by a government which has already bankrupted social security [No.] and medicare, [No. That's good, too.] all to be overseen by a surgeon general who is obese [Surgeon General Regina M. Benjamin, MD, MBA is not obese. Are you taking reporting lessons from Sean Hannity?] and financed by a country that is broke? [America is not broke.]
[I will respond to this next bundle of lies in a bit.]
Bill, ACA is NOT nor will it ever be "paid for". It is 1000% deficit spending - which is not really spending as much as it is generational theft. Jan, the US is already the highest taxed nation in terms of corporate taxes - unless you are GE, GM or pick any Obama green company that has just gone belly up with billions of tax payer $ never to be recovered. The simplest way is pre HMO Act of 1973 pay for service and mend, not end Medicare Medicaid and S-chip for those who truly cannot afford insurance. Running the largest and greatest healthcare system in the world as a DMV or post office is sheer insanity. I never understood why if 85% of the people who were happy with their coverage that the only answer for the solution to the 10-15% not covered - should be achieved by spreading misery evenly and calling it a solution. It's not. And the list of failed economies and poorer standards of living are too numerous as history records them.
[Jesus fucking Christ those two “non-partisans” sure can yammer nonsensically on at incredible length about what I said. It’s fun taking apart their talking points, though.]
[OK. Some of the stuff I say next will be repeated. It was a long time before I responded during the original Facebook discussion, so I added comments as I went through in preparing this for the blog. Please bear with me.]
My apologies for taking so long to respond. I had things to do. Wow, do I have a lot to respond to. Mind you, I’m just correcting the Republican lies that everyone really seems to enjoy repeating all willy-nilly without ever checking their veracity. This does not automatically mean I unconditionally support the ACA. Nor does it mean I’m a Democrat. Which I’m not. Nor does it mean I hate you. Your fragile little egos.
Ok. So, it's only the specific kinds of government that don’t run efficiently (which you haven’t named) that support your argument against it that you accept. Nothing else counts. Fine.
As for the Politico article, just how hard did you search to find a right-wing, FOX "News" contributing author (John C. Goodman) to write that obviously biased article full of misinformation on a left-leaning site? [Actually, as I have shown earlier, a right-leaning site.]
As for the facts regarding Social Security's sustainability...
And you know what would easily help solve any potential deficiency in SS? Do not cap the payroll tax at $106,800. But (sorry to inject politics again) Republicans are protecting the wealthy again. The inefficiency is not due to the program itself, but by the politicians bought by their wealthy donors. [Capping the payroll tax a $106,800 shifts the burden off of the wealthy and onto the middle class.]
As for living in a land of make believe, well... enjoy.
No one is debating the merits of the law here. No one is bringing up things that are ACTUALLY in the bill and discussing their implications. You guys are all bringing up right-wing lies that have been debunked. Oh, but I'M the one being political (and angry and unfriendly) for bringing up unbiased facts. Ok. Sure. Whatever helps you feel good about your bias.
So, Bush makes the USPS pay all their employee pensions up front, which is THE reason the USPS is screwed, not due to any inefficiency in the program itself, and we shouldn't look to the past? If someone murders a family member, do you also say don't put him on trial, that was in the past? Please. Our entire existence is based on what happened in the past. It's how we learn. Well, most of us. I guess unless a Republican did something wrong, then we shouldn't look at the past. But then, I'M the one injecting politics into your blatant right-wing supporting arguments.
"How will the Law add doctors? We will hand out medical degrees?" Are you serious? If a position needs to be filled, a person is hired to fill it. It happens every day. In every business. People go to medical school to become doctors. A hospital needs a doctor. A hospital hires a doctor. If more people are seeing doctors due to being able to afford health care, more doctors who went to medical school to become doctors will be hired. No one has to "hand out medical degrees." Or were you just trying to make the ACA sound silly without using any facts. Of course, there won’t be enough doctors, but that’s another issue. [I just described how doctors normally become doctors, not pertaining to ACA, but whatever. I’m just sick of baseless fear-mongering.]
But I'M the one being political.
You are right about nobody reading the bill. However, it has been floating around for a couple of years now. Long enough for you and everybody else to know better than to keep repeating the debunked right-wing lies about what it does or doesn't say at this point. Or am I wrong?
As for your right-wing, misinformation-laden Forbes article about the uninsured that tries to make it seem like people just don't want to pay for what they are able to pay for, it was actually closer to 53 million not able to afford care:
You are right though, I should have been clearer. My apologies. 50 mil will not be covered due to the Supreme Court's decision regarding Medicare. It will only be around 32 mil more instead. So Republican Governors, like Jindal, the topic which started this thread, will opt out of providing his citizens the option of coverage because he hates the Republican health care plan that scores Obama political points. Yay, partisanship.
As for 10 - 14 mil young healthy people that choose not to buy health insurance even though they can afford it - yes, it is estimated that up to 10 mil may be able to afford it. The Census does not say this an indisputable fact. It is an estimate. I guess that means America shouldn't try and keep health care costs down because of them.
The ACA does not increase costs. That is a right-wing lie. HR2 (the Republicans' oh-so-childishly-named "Repealing the Job-Killing Health Care Law Act") is what would increase the deficit by $230 billion.
NEVER has it been considered "free." I'm not sure how someone PURCHASING insurance equates to "Obama wants to give everyone free health care" in Republican minds. It’s tough to give up brainwashed talking points, I guess. I'm sure you'll continue to ignore this fact in order to push your lies, though.
It does increase the number of health care providers (not only doctors). But you are correct, it does not provide enough. So, is your argument that we shouldn’t bother trying to insure people because not enough people are going to med school?
And please stop with the right-wing “Government takeover of healthcare” fear-mongering lie. Buying insurance is not a government takeover.
And how do you link the ‘temporary doctor’ trend that started well almost 20 years ago to the ACA? Oh, the connection was made in right-wing FORBES magazine in order to try and add more to the fear-mongering against the ACA. It doesn’t matter if it has nothing to do with it. Nice.
I do not think the ACA is a utopia or cure-all. I am not a Democrat. I am simply pointing out the lies you and others are repeating. You somehow perceive this as me being a blind left-wing follower in the same way that you are a blind right-wing follower. You are wrong. I find many faults with the half-assed, watered down ACA. It’s just that I’m not repeating things that are not true. Yes, some of the stats I posted were incorrect. I apologized and corrected. If you said, ‘Hitler had big, bushy sideburns!’ And I said, ‘No, Hitler had a little mustache.’ That would not mean I support Hitler.
The World Health Org stats disagree with your right-wing “America is the bestest in everything ever!” brainwashing, so you label them partisan funded.
Canada’s Premier, Danny Williams went to Florida not because he did not want to ‘wait it out in Canada,’ insinuating that Canada has a shoddy health care system. It does not. Just ask the Palin family, who sneak over the border into Canada for their health care. He went to FL because specialties such as the cardiac procedure he needed were not available in Canada. This supports my previous statement that America has an advanced level of care. And that anyone can have it – those who can afford it, that is.
As for the UK Healthcare Administrator dying of cancer, over 500,000 people die in America per year while being treated for cancer. Many of them are also waiting for surgery. So, what does that mean?
Ok. Let’s pretend “my side” is the Democrats for the purpose of this discussion. Let’s pretend that simple facts are partisan and when they disagree with right-wing dogma, they’re liberal as opposed to neutral. You say, “…they drill and sell oil. Something your side is vehemently opposed to as we throw billions of taxpayer money for solar and green energy frauds tied to Obama campaign bundlers.” - Facts OUTSIDE the impenetrable bubble in which you live: For the first time since 1949, under the Obama administration, America has EXPORTED more oil and gas than it imported. Oil IMPORTS have dropped 11% down to 1995 levels. Obama has QUADRUPLED the amount of oil rigs in the Gulf since he took office. (Not to mention that during the last three Bush years oil output DECREASED each year.) And your repetition of the ‘Obama green energy fraud’ lies yet again paint you as partisan. I’m sure you’re talking about Solyndra. Republicans LOVE talking about Solyndra – ignoring the truth. The Energy Department's loan guarantee program was created as part of the Energy Policy Act of 2005, passed by a Republican-controlled Congress and signed by George W. Bush. Republicans, including Bush, emphasized the program's benefits for nuclear energy and biofuels. Bush touted the new energy law in his 2007 State of the Union address. His energy secretary, Samuel Bodman, regularly mentioned the loan guarantees in speeches on renewable energy. The Energy Department issued its final rules for the program in 2007, along with a list of 16 companies that made the cut to apply for its first round of awards, and SOLYNDRA was among them. Bush energy officials wanted to get the loan closed on their way out the door — it was listed as the first of their "three highest priorities through January 15." (Obama took office Jan. 20, 2009.) But the Energy Department's credit committee held things up for more analysis. That didn't keep Bush from touting the loan guarantee program on his way out of office. On Jan. 6, 2009, in remarks on conservation and the environment, he said, "We dedicated more than $18 billion to developing clean and efficient technologies like biofuels, advanced batteries and hydrogen fuel cells, solar and wind power, and clean, safe nuclear power. We're providing more than $40 billion in loan guarantees to put these technologies to use." So yes, Solyndra was part of Bush’s $58 billion green energy plan and Obama continued it.
The ACA is not the largest tax increase in the history of western civilization. More right-wing lies. But I’m the one being political. It isn’t even the largest tax increase in the last 60 years. It’s the 10th. Behind 1.) the Revenue act of 1951, 2.) the Revenue Act of 1950, 3.) the Temporary Surcharge of 1968, 4.) the Excess Profits Tax of 1950, 5.) the Reagan Tax Increase of 1982, 6.) the Tax Increase of 1966, 7.) the Oil Windfall Tax of 1980, 8.) the Clinton Tax Increase of 1993, and 9.) the Bush Tax Increase of 1990.
But hey, don’t let facts get in the way of your blind partisanship.
I agree the ‘super committee’ was stupid (and cowardly) on Obama’s part. He should have known by then that Republicans would never compromise.
The Ryan-Wyden plan, you say? First, it has specifically to do with Medicare reform, not health care reform. Second, the way it works is by tying the subsidy to the second-least expensive plan in the market. That way, the system gives beneficiaries a financial incentive to choose the cheaper plan. That is EXACTLY how the Affordable Care Act works. The difference is that Ryan-Wyden would include a massive public option in Medicare, which is something Conservatives REFUSED to allow in the ACA. So, why is that “a real roadmap for a bi-partisan solution to the most predictable debt crisis we've seen in history” but the ACA is bad? Maybe because of that little public option thing Republicans were vehemently against? And Obama pussed out of defending? [Actually, that’s not the Ryan-Wyden plan. That was the plan originally put together by Ryan and Wyden, but Ryan changed it when he put it in his budget plan.]
The ACA will be paid for. "1000% deficit spending?" Well, that’s a realistic number I should totally take seriously. Here are just a few of the ways in which it will be paid:
--Increasing the Medicare tax on high-income households
--An excise tax on insurers offering high-cost health insurance policies
--Penalties for those who don’t get coverage (except for those whose incomes are low enough that they are not required to file a tax return)
--Requiring employers with more than 50 workers to pay a penalty if they don’t provide health insurance coverage to their employees
--Imposing new fees on the health industry (companies such as drug makers, medical device makers, and insurers will pay new fees in exchange for the new business that will come their way as a result of the expected influx of Americans who will obtain health coverage and use more medical services)
--Trimming various health-related tax breaks
--Creating a new long-term care insurance program (those who enroll pay premiums into the program for at least five years before being eligible for benefits as seniors)
But again, don’t let any facts get in the way of your misinformed partisan opinions.
As for the US being the country with the highest corporate taxes – that’s a little complicated. Stick with me…
Yes, the statutory corporate tax rate in America is almost the highest (behind Japan.). However, due to multitudinous and ever-growing loopholes, credits, deductions and highly utilized overseas tax havens, the effective tax rate dropped to a 40-year low of 12.1% in 2011. Facts Republicans like to ignore so they can protect their wealthy corporate donors. On top of this lowest effective tax rate, corporate profits have been reaching record-breaking numbers since the recession. (This wealth does not trickle down. Ever. For a fact.) The fact is, the US taxes its corporations less and also raises less revenue from corporate taxes than most countries. It would be possible to raise revenue to help reduce the deficit by lowering corporate taxes, though. The trick is to close loopholes and tax havens – but Republicans consider those tax increases. It’ll never happen.
Noel, you cannot be taken seriously if you quote the Clown Prince of Ass Clowns, Donald Trump. Three year old, out of date news, sprinkled with lies is quite laughable. [Actually, that “We’re going to be gifted” speech was by Senate candidate, Dr. Barbara Bellar, not Trump. As with most internet quotes, it was misattributed to Dinglenuts Squirrelwig since he’s famous. But no matter who said it, it’s still complete bullshit.]
As far as Jindal and other Republican Governors (and some Democrats afraid of losing an election), refusing to implement the ACA in their states - Congress passed the law, the President signed it, and the Supreme Court upheld it. It is Constitutional. (Republicans LOVE the Constitution. Unless they disagree with it.) If the states never had to adhere to federal law, the United States of America would be 50 separate, ununited countries. And at the end of the day, they will not turn down the subsidies that help their citizens. They may deride them as socialist or satanic or a failure or whatever, like they have in the past and insist they will not accept them under any circumstances, but just like little hypocrite Bobby Jindal did with the stimulus, they’ll fucking accept it.
Bill - that is not how the ACA works. The ACA, should it survive repeal in January under President Romney [!] does not pay for itself. [Unlike the Afghanistan & Iraq wars and the 2001 & 2003 Bush Tax Cuts?] Prior to the decision last week it was already 2.7 trillion in new debt - and that's from the non partisan CBO. And yes the 21 new taxes with the bill will top any tax increase in world history - not just merely western civilization. Saying that it's deficit neutral and that now 50 million will be "covered" when they won't - doesn't make it so. What will you say to the 75% of employer based per tax dollar premiums who will lose their coverage now and be subject to a tax if they don't replace it? Do you say, sorry but the greatest president who ever walked the earth must have his legacy over peoples lives. What do you say now to the middle class who will be subsidizing freebies to people who live at 400x higher than the poverty line? I'll tell you what Bill. Since your the champion for getting people to pay for other people, I'll make you a deal. I'll pay for your insurance if you pay my
Mortgage, 'k? ;)
Bill, a little about WHO's [World Health Organization] hidden agenda of collectivism, one worldism (aka statism, marxism, liberalism - its all the same...) and blatant anti-american bias:
Taxmageddon: All ObamaTax all the time. And not a partisan lie. This from the non partisan CBO. And who pays for it? The very people Obama promised would not get one nickel of an increase in taxes. This will be remembered as his "read my lips" moment.
tax, tax, tax, tax and oh - even more tax...
Obviously, you did not look at the original CBO report. Rather, you were told what the CBO said through some right-wing filter. If you had bothered to read the ACTUAL fucking report, you would know $2.7 trillion is a cherry-picked number and is NOT the budget analysis. Also, it's only the 2012 budget. It has NOTHING to do with the ACA. Let me try to explain it as simply as I can for you. After Clinton left office with the country surplus-spending (taking in more revenue than it was spending), Bush came in an fucked the country with 2 unpaid-for wars and 2 unpaid-for tax cuts, which flipped us back to massive deficit-spending, which resulted in adding $5 fucking trillion to the national debt, bringing it to $11 trillion. Obama is bringing this deficit-spending spiral DOWN each year, aiming us back toward surplus-spending. The CBO says the 2012 Obama budget LOWERS the national deficit. We're still deficit-spending, but it is less each year instead of more. The total over the next 10 years is $2.7 trillion, but that is a declining number, pointing us toward budget surplus. The truth is, federal spending is decreasing every year under Obama, no matter the repetition of lies from the right.
And like I already said, repealing the ACA would add $230 billion to the deficit, according to the actual CBO report.
ALL of the new taxes in the ACA totaled together add up to be the 10th largest tax. No matter how hard you stick your fingers in your ears to block out facts and cling to partisan right-wing lies.
What do I say about 75% of employers losing coverage? I say you are repeating a right-wing extremist worst-case apocalyptic scenario lie, which is about 98% exaggerated. And defies what the actual CBO and ACA says.
What do I say to employers being taxed if they don't provide health insurance - the Employer Shared Responsibility Payment provision? I say employers will still provide health insurance for their employees. Why wouldn't they? Why are you deliberately making up highly improbable extreme worst-case scenarios (maybe you're just repeating what drug addict Limbaugh told you) for the sole purpose of being partisan?
You play this as my belief: "[Obama,] the greatest president who ever walked the earth must have his legacy over peoples lives." I have clearly stated that is not my belief. You are pathetically trying to make me seem like I blindly love Obama as much as you blindly hate him. I have clearly stated that I am simply relaying the facts to counter all of the right-wing partisan lies you are repeating. Never once have I said I endorse the ACA. Like I said: Hitler had a little mustache. Relaying this fact does not mean I support Hitler. Please stop being foolish. It makes you appear foolish.
What do I say to the middle class who will be subsidizing free health care to those who don't pay for it? I say THAT IS THE EXACT SYSTEM WE HAVE NOW, GENIUS. THE ACA ATTEMPTS TO END THAT SYSTEM BY FORCING PEOPLE PARTICIPATE IN THE FREE MARKET BY PURCHASING HEALTH CARE. THE EXACT KIND OF "PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY" THAT REPUBLICANS LOVE SO MUCH. THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF A 'GOVERNMENT TAKEOVER OF HEALTH CARE.' Sorry for shout-typing. I was hoping it would make you pay attention to a fact for once. I can dream, can't I?
You, Sir, are insanely partisan.
And since you're offering, I'd rather you paid my mortgage if I could pay for your health care. That's a much better deal for me.
And again, yes, America has great health care services - FOR THOSE WHO CAN AFFORD IT. How many times must I repeat that fact? Are you suggesting that poor foreigners should show up and demand free health care that I must pay for with my taxes? It is wealthy foreigners who have the cashola to pay for the great American health services money can provide.
The article you posted by Citizens' Council for Health Freedom, founded by Twila Brase, a right-wing insurance corporation shill and Tea Party rally speech-giver and anti 'Obamacare' activist, fails to mention she puts corporations over care. There is no anti-American bias to the WHO. This article intentionally ignores the affordability factor and focuses solely on quality of the care itself.
And collectivism, statism, Marxism and liberalism are words that all have different meanings. In your zeal to blindly attack what you are told to fear, you appear increasingly foolish. Nothing but more misinformed, blind right-wing brainwashed repeatings. Look something up before you blindly repeat it.
The article you posted by the extremely partisan right-wing think tank, American Enterprise Institute is a lie. Those are not the CBO numbers. Go to the CBO for the ACTUAL numbers. You have given me more manipulated bullshit. Look something up before you blindly repeat it.
The article you posted by the extremely partisan right-wing Investors.com is chock full of lies, which have been circulating within the right-wing bubble. I have already explained that the total ACA taxes are not the biggest in the universe. (see above) How can companies blame layoffs they have already made on a tax that won't happen for another six months? And a future 2.3% tax increase is not going to force layoffs and move companies overseas. More nonsensical extreme apocalyptic fear-mongering. Highly profitable corporations did not lay off thousands and move overseas under the tyrannical Clinton tax years. You have given me more manipulated bullshit. Look something up before you blindly repeat it.
I repeat: You, Sir, are insanely partisan.
Just because you enjoy the taste of the bullshit the right-wing is feeding you, doesn't mean I will.
And with that said, you obviously have nothing to offer but easily refuted and debunked right-wing talking point lies, which are beginning to bore me. As the ranked #1 in health care, socialist French say, adieu.
HasselhoffI can't believe you cited Rex Nutting - LOL. Partisan left wing hack who wouldn't know the truth if he tripped over it. [Rex Nutting has been considered a partisan hack ever since he wrote his May 22, 2012 column, “Obama Spending Binge Never Happened.” Republicans claim anything that disagrees with their version of reality is a lie. Here is another article that basically says the same thing: Obama increased government spending at a lower rate than every President since Hoover.] How do you expect to be taken seriously if you can't understand that 2.7 to 3 trillion in borrowing from china is not adding to the debt? [Currently, China holds $1.16T of our debt. But that’s just a fact. Ignore it. As for borrowing from China, I see the right-wing fear-mongering is working on you. But, it’s actually a good thing for the economy.] Obviously you missed the fact that states will no longer be penalized for not expanding medicare / medicaid spending and the loss of the force of exchanges - a huge other "funding mechanism" now gone. [Oh, for fuck’s sake. I didn’t miss anything. You’re fear-mongering again. MedicareAdvocacy.org: Medicare Facts and Fiction: Costs and Spending Edition ] But that's even before The 2.7 trillion in real debt, according to non partisan CBO - will now be more in the neighborhood of 3 trillion - while still leaving out 20 million people and driving up premiums for those people lucky enough to still have their insurance. [First, this $2.7T number you keep repeating: It’s actually $2.6T and it’s not what Obamacare will cost, it’s what the health care industry makes per year. But yeah, just repeat a Republican lie. The real number is $1.1Billion. Billion with a “B.” Here is the ACTUAL fucking CBO report.] Bill, is it possible that you can disagree without being disagreeable? [Is it possible you can present a fact in which to agree upon?] There is no need to "mark territory" here. I notice you like to call people you disagree with "Partisan" [Just when you incessantly repeat debunked right-wing lies as truth.] - yet you do not acknowledge your rather passionate partisan rhetoric [Facts are partisan?] that undermines any limited credibility that you had by citing far left wing sources like think progress and Rex Nutting - who just got caught red handed not knowing what baseline budgeting was [No. Republicans are making shit up and you are believing them without checking to see if they are really true.] - and this is the wise sage you quote? ROFL!!!!!!!!! Nutting also fell for a bogus Pelosi chart that was embarrasingly discredited showing that Obama was a great spending cutter (when he raised spending 25% across the board and built in 3 annual 1.5 trillion deficits) - further ROFL! [True. Sort of. Obama only increased non-defense discretionary spending by 24% from $434 billion in 2008 to $537 billion in 2010. Not “across the board” spending. It was spent on things such as education, health and housing. In context, and adjusted for inflation and population growth, that’s the same exact amount spent as 10 years ago. Cockhole. And yes, there were 3 annual deficits of around $1.5T. Might that have something to do with the recession, plus the housing crash, plus the financial crisis, plus the increased unemployment garnering less revenue, plus the Bush Tax Cuts, plus the two unpaid-for wars – all generously bestowed upon America by President George W. Bush? (Yes, all those things he did are still and always will be his fault.) Plus, the current, mouth-breathing Teabagger-Republicans in Congress refusing to raise taxes on millionaires, yet simultaneously subsidizing billion-dollar banks and oil companies? Oh, and that’s not my “passionate partisan rhetoric.” That’s precisely what the CBO says.] Now you have just provided what a reasonable person can safely call "insanely partisan" - and be accurate when saying it. [Yes, for a person who is reasonably ignoring facts that exist in the real world.] You quote someone who does not even understand basic economics. [According to math-hating, truth-denying Republicans.] Compare that to the sources that I have provided and they are not debunked, not smacked down - they are real numbers by respected sources and journalists - and you have done nothing to rebut except offer silly far left wing links that don't even have a slight resemblance to reality. I can see why this makes you frustrated. [Yes. I get frustrated when someone completely ignores the truth when it is handed to them as you do. You present articles that blatantly lie about CBO numbers and when presented with the actual CBO numbers from the actual CBO, you proclaim your false numbers from right-wing liars to be the ones that are true and not the actual CBO numbers. But I’m the partisan. Wonderful.] A bit like Yosemite Sam when Bugs Bunny gives you a big sloppy wet kiss of truth and a stick of dynamite. [Yes. Just like that. What the fuck is up, Doc?] And it causes you to lash out like a child and call fact based articles "right wing lies" without providing examples of why they are lies nor any credible citations showing where those facts have erred. [Well, except for all the times I do, but you’d have to not ignore my childish lashings since they disprove your debunked anal leakage.] Its not just that they are well researched and not facing corrections from ombudsmen - which is a 20x event per day with papers like the Times or WashPo or Thinkprogress - a thoroughly discredited propoganda mill. [Discredited by whom? The same sources you use that post false CBO numbers?] Disagree all you want. But ObamaCare IS A THREE TRILLION DOLLAR HOLE that is NOT PAID FOR. [It’s true. You wrote it in caps. How can I deny yell-typing?] It's no longer in dispute. There is not ANY EXAMPLE where you can FACTUALLY cite deficit reduction in this administration
[LA Times: Federal deficit hits 5-year low, but cuts drag economy
Investors.com: The Deficit Chart That Should Embarrass Budget Hawks
CBO: The Budget and Economic Outlook: Fiscal Years 2013 to 2023]
(that has now spent more than Washington to Bush combined) [Goddammit. Another right-wing talking point is that Obama has spent more money than all the Presidents combined. You know how they come up with this bullshit? I do. For all the Presidents except Obama, they just count public debt. For Obama, they add public and private debt together. These numbnuts hear Sean Hannity proclaim Obama spent more than everybody and just accept it. Oh, and spending a fucklot less than Republicans would probably help more in the deficit reduction arena if Republicans wouldn’t block ending tax breaks for millionaires.] - not in ACA [Healthcare costs money, it isn’t free. And the ACA lowers health care costs for everyone, which consequently lowers debt. However, repealing it as Republicans symbolically voted 33 fucking times to do (instead of ever once putting forth a jobs bill) will add $100B to the deficit – according to the actual CBO.], not in the stimulus bribe to public sector unions, [There was no bribe.] not in stealth cap and trade via EPA, [Cap & Trade. The Republican policy developed by a Reagan White House lawyer and first implemented by President H.W. Bush with his Clean Air Act of 1990 to great success. Felt any acid rain lately? Not since the late 90’s.] one could go on all day. […making shit up to support biased, uninformed opinions.] Instead of attacking the messenger, you might sound less partisan and even a tad credible if you engaged in an adult conversation. Cite some real sources that back up your wild claims. But you can't. [I can’t when you ignore all the times I do.] Because even the administration can't sell Obamacare to the two thirds of the country that oppose it. [When people are asked if they like the Affordable Care Act, the majority says ‘no.’ But when they are asked about each individual aspect separately, the majority says ‘yes’ to each and every one to each and every one. It seems only that people have been conditioned by Republican brainwashing to hate the words ‘Obamacare’ or ‘Affordable Care Act,’ but not the actual contents of the bill.] I have not called your assertions lies one time. [Was that because they’re not?] What I did do was calmly challenge them and very effectively rebut them. [In your mind.] And it bothers you. Don't let it bother you. Take a breath. Think about what you want to defend. Defend liberalism. Defend tyranny. [Liberalism is not tyranny, you twuntsack.] Its what you believe in passionately. You tell us this with every post. You believe that stealing half a trillion from the seniors who raised us to pay for younger obama voters is sound policy - so defend it. You believe that the corrupt practice of double counting "savings in medicare fraud' - is sound economic policy. Defend it. Sebellius got caught red handed lying to a Congressional oversite committee hearing on it. Its not even debatable. So defend it. You believe that people who are of means and live at 400 times above the poverty level - should have free healthcare off the backs of the middle class. Defend it. Tell all your friends why such class warfare is so visionary for the American Dream. Cry it from the mountaintops. It's still incoherent. It's still the worst form of politics. It's still pitting groups of Americans against each other. But you are free to speak your mind. So please - keep defending tyranny and Orwellian tactics of "pay no attention to what I'm doing style jedi mind tricks" that work only on sheep ready for the slaughter. Oh and give my best to Rex - ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Still laughing at that one! Thanks for the unintended laugh. appreciate it ;) [You deluded, mouth-breathing, right-wing, talking-point-repeating moron.]
***** ***** ** ***** *****
And for the record, I signed the petition.