Wednesday, July 18, 2012

It's the Denial of Truth, Stupid

My good buddy, Mark simply posted a link to a Mother Jones article about the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer. There are tons of charts explaining everything and more links in the article leading to more charts. Simple, straightforward. In its unbiased reporting, it even shows how rich Democrats in Congress voted unanimously to extend the Bush Tax Cuts for rich people.

Enter: Kathy. I forgot that the facts which contradict Republican fantasies are the equivalent of lies.


mmmm We're poor.

BUT BUT BUT those corpratins gotta have low taxes onacounta they trickle down jorbs!!! Deka deka durrr!!!!!!


and odds are- we always will be! Yay! We fear change.

Interesting, from them there cherry picked charts, it appears one should get an MBA and become a CEO/millionnaire. The only downside is it's really hard. What does the chart w/ Wall Street Profits (vs.home equity vs unemployment) mean by wall street profits? Where is the line for money other people got, which was obviously stolen from other people because that's too much because we decideded it was? [That makes no sense – it just has the Republican dog-whistle idea of ‘money stolen from people and handed to other people.’] And why is income spoken about in shares? I wasn't aware that's how the system was built, unless we're discussing the stock market, which is built around shares that anyone can buy. [Yes, low income people – 90% of the country – are able to afford gambling their rent and food money on stocks.]
Notice the graph with the decline in revenue from corporate taxes compared w/ payroll and income tax? That's a direct result of driving companies offshore with unfriendly tax policies [The lowest tax rates in 60 years are unfriendly?] and unrealistic labor demands [Paying employees a living wage on par with inflation? Currently, worker wages are equal to late 1960’s wages with 2012 living expenses, adjusted.]. Check out how quickly states with unfriendly income tax policies are shedding wealthy people and reducing their own revenue in the process.
MI did an awesome job with the business tax rate pulling in at 48. As in 2 away from the worst. Jobs may trickle down slowly [Or never. Since it’s never.], but they also appear to gush out pretty fast [Due to austerity measures in the name of greed, not so much taxes.], so I choose the former. No worries, I bet those big fat rebates (i.e.checks. bribes?) we sent to Hollywood are gonna pay off any day now. [Huh?]

[Half of what she said was simply not true. The other half, I have no idea what she was talking about.]

Give me an example of trickle down economics working. [No one has ever been able to do it since it has never happened. Let’s see how Kathy does…]

Any job created in the private sector. So a job created rather than saved. [Um, no. If I get a job at McDonald’s, that has nothing to do with a McDonald’s getting a tax break. It has to do with a high volume of customers requiring a larger staff to handle them.]


OK, so the job being created versus the saved job- how does 1 created job benefit 10 newly unemployed people? And, what about the 10 that were eliminated?

There is no widening wealth disparity, nothing to see here, move along.

Is it not true? The cash invested certainly trickles down far quicker than return on investment is seen. [No. Cash only ever trickles up.] Only once all the overhead + the taxes due are paid does one even begin to see cash flowing back in. [True.] No profit is realized until the original expenditure is made back and higher taxes=a much longer wait and fewer people willing to do it. [The difference between profit and greed.] Is there any situation where higher taxes = more jobs??? [Yes. If we were to look at researchable historical facts and not Republican wishes, we see that since the 50’s, when the top marginal tax rate was over 40%, annual growth averaged 3.8%. During the years the rate was below 40%, annual real growth averaged 2.1%. And yes, economic growth equals more jobs. If one were to go by facts.] Don't bother mentioning public sector jobs, as they don't create wealth, they simply shuffle around money taxed in from the private sector. [If facts were taken into consideration, whenever there was a recession during a Republican Presidency, they added public sector jobs. Nixon did it, Reagan added 225,000 public jobs in his first term alone, Daddy Bush did it, Baby Shits-His-Diapers Bush increased public jobs by 3.7%. This measure has always helped get us out of recession. Always. The taxes are collected regardless. The Government can either keep it or hire public workers, which enables them to purchase stuff, which stimulates the economy. Republicans used to understand this, but not since they have turned Fascist. Firing people never creates jobs, wealth or economic prosperity. If one were to go by facts.

Linda- One created job=10 unemployed people rather than 11. What about the ten? That's the question of the day/year/decade??? [I don’t understand what is being said here.]

What about corporations like Walmart who get extreme tax breaks/abatements- get roads built by cities, then when those breaks expire, move to another city and get free breaks again? They eliminate all the jobs in the former city, but "create" new jobs in the new city. "Creating" new jobs means nothing if the forces eliminated many more in the process. So, really, there is no benefit to the workers, or the city. Tax breaks to corporations just mean tax breaks to corporations they don't mean those corporations who currently underpay/overwork their workers will suddenly decide that now that they have more money that they clearly love to hang onto will give more people jobs- especially when they've been functioning just fine with their current employees. As is seen, corporations have consistently received larger and larger tax breaks yet are eliminating/moving overseas more and more jobs. Where does that whole trickle down crap fit in there? Current job loss has more to do with NAFTA than taxation of corporations. If we taxed the hell out of imported goods keeping factories operating in the United States becomes all the more sexy to corporations, and they won't be inclined to leave- even with the tax breaks they always get, and continue to get in greater numbers!

In Germany a CEO makes 12 times what the average worker earns, in the US a CEO earns 475 times what a worker earns. Something is seriously wrong with that.

Makes me want to hurl!

Walmart is a breed all it's own, I'm not sure why anyone (in view of their practices) shops there, but they do and they did which is how it came to be the monster/behemoth it is today. What astounds me is the number of proud union members (as evidenced by stickers on their cars) are addicted to the low, low prices.
It's true that a lower tax rate doesn't mean a corp. will guarantee more jobs as they aren't in business to create jobs, but rather to create wealth, for themselves. Luckily, the rich like getting richer and the point comes when higher profit will come only out of producing more which can only be done if they hire more people. The government can take progressively higher taxes from these corps. (which exist to profit) the corps. will grow more slowly leaving the gov. with a larger piece of a smaller pie. (Which is a lot like the share of income the middle/low class had in the bar chart (in one of the links) showing us the good ol' days when the rich got soaked and paid way higher taxes on way, way less money) I'd rather have 10% of a billion than 15% of .5 billion.
We could tax foreign goods, but expect turnabout to be fair play and understand that doing so has far reaching effects. NAFTA put money in the hands of a lot of Mexicans who in turn bought American products which likely created jobs outside of the auto industry (actually the auto industry added 100,000+ in the U.S. in the first six years after NAFTA, so...)
If more Americans were determined to simply buy American(remember when that was Walmarts 'thing'? WTF?) more Americans would be employed, but we don't/won't

[Except for the “larger piece of a smaller pie” comment that contradicts historical data, most of what she said here astonishingly makes sense. Most.]

I agree if we kept more jobs at home, we would be stronger... but, when the bottom line dictates you get your sh*t made in China for pennies on the dollar to what it would cost you here, it's not gonna happen.

Until there's global parity in wages, companies will outsource.

I'm more for a global party using wages...

What multiple of the average worker is acceptable then? Twelve times? I bet some people think that's too much, so..less? The average worker produces a pretty finite sum, [Excuse me?] but what of the CEO who doubles the revenue for the company [On the backs of the workers actually doing the work who are producing ALL of the sum.], should he really be paid some arbitrary multiple of a person who clocks in, makes 50 widgets then clocks out? I agree, in theory, that most CEOs don't merit tens of millions/year, but neither do most pro athletes and pop stars, it's up to the market to say when, not me. [Republicans keep dragging pro athletes and actors into their corporation discussions as if the problem was that poor people are mad at rich people for being rich. This is either done on purpose to obfuscate the truth or they are not intelligent enough to understand the words coming out of educated, liberal mouths. The problem is that rich people do not pay the same higher tax rates as poor people and CEO's do not pay their workers a living wage while simultaneously giving themselves $15 million bonuses.]

During the 1980s the pay gap between CEO and laborers grew from 42 times to almost 85 times. In 2004 CEOs in the United States made over 475 times as much as the average worker. When will these money grubbing monsters have enough money? It is absolutely deplorable.

Bill Mancuso
I would love to join this party, but taking the reality point against the fantasy point is really a waste of time. Yes, you all know what I mean. It's like arguing who does a better job at fighting crime - the police or Superman? Superman has super powers and can kick any criminal's ass and cops can't. But Superman isn't real - just like pretty much everything Kathy is trying to justify. Talk about being plugged in to the right-wing propaganda machine - sheesh! Am I to believe that every time a poll or statistic agrees with fairness toward the working class, it's left-wing propaganda lies and every time a poll or statistic agrees with the top 2% richest giant corporations systematically destroying the working class lower 98% of America, it's the absolute truth?

You are delusional.

Hey, the Republicans also hate and are trying to de-fund Planned Parenthood, Kate. Do you hate PP, too? Less than $400 mil of their funding comes from the gov't. That's nothing. And they're the nation's leading sexual and reproductive health care advocate and provider, including services such as birth control; emergency contraception; screening for breast, cervical and testicular cancers; pregnancy testing and pregnancy options counseling; testing and treatment for sexually transmitted diseases; comprehensive sexuality education, menopause treatments; vasectomies, tubal ligations, and abortion. OH, SHIT! NOT ABORTION! If I remember correctly from the last time we went 'round this topic, you hysterically think that's genocide. By the way, less than 3% of the services they provide go toward a woman's Constitutionally protected right to have an abortion. And due to these services they provide, millions of unwanted abortions are actually prevented each year. But since Republicans are attacking women's rights, I guess you'll be a good little Republican and blindly follow and hate women's rights, too. And if Republicans want to get rid of all these jobs – “so be it.” Right?

Damn you, Mark.

[Sometimes, I am a wise-ass son of a bitch.]

Not even touching this one. I'm just gonna just chisel Reagan's face into the pile of instant mashed potatoes before me (I call it Mt. Spudmore) and bask in the righteous Oligarchy envisioned by our forefathers and defended so valiantly by our dead veterans. Yay!

As for the PP business above. Without Planned Parenthood unwanted pregnancies will rise, thereby increasing the likelihood for and number of abortions, thereby creating a situation in which Republicans can scream "murder," thereby creating a fun new (or at least bigger) fight between the left and the right, thereby distracting the masses from all the bull shit happening to us- mission accomplished!

PP directly prevents welfare, poverty, abortions, and further expenditures. Cost saving 101, but even PREVENTING pregnancies offends Jesus.

Jesus is in my pants...

It's weird when people get personal and attack, but I suppose if I were bitter and was looking to blame someone, I might do the same. It's possible to debate and remain civil, Mr. Mancuso, it's problematic for those who understand the concept of "fair" better than what is real. For the record, I am no fan of PP, which covers up statutory rape and sex abuse routinely enough to repeatedly be caught on video doing so. Abortion is also not my favorite, which makes me a fan of human rights over women's rights, so be it. [Women aren’t human?] You say I'm blindly following a propaganda machine? Who framed the argument in terms of women's rights? You're repeating a slogan made up to the laughter of NARAL's founders and are convinced it's what is.You think a woman isn't pregnant with a baby unless she wants it to be one and I'm delusional? [Women only get pregnant when they want to be? Yes, you are delusional.] I do not presume to know what the millions aborted might have grown to be, taxpayers would have been nice, though the left(as Daniel proves) presumes otherwise. I do know that minority populations are being decimated, especially AfAmers [African Americans]. Margaret Sanger would be proud.

Minority population rates, blacks included, continue to grow. Find me a single credible report that states otherwise.

PP is a resource almost entirely aimed at and utilized by the lower economic class. I am "presuming" nothing by relaying quantifiable fact. Providing services that help government-reliant people choose to not bring additional government-reliant people into existence, through a variety of means, is an absolute social necessity and a fiscal no-brainer.

But sure, let's throw out the baby with the bathwater. Knowledge shouldn't free either, right? We hard-working taxpayers produce it, why should the poor get it for nothing?

Thread sizzling.

Sizzling, yet beyond predictable.

I am willing to say that abortion terminates life and still advocate for choice. I will not deem that life a "person," however, just as I will not deem an acorn an oak tree. If you don't like the choice, don't put yourself in a position to have to make it. If you didn't receive quality sex education through public schools and you are too poor to afford contraceptives, or to go to a physician to have them prescribed, just go to Planned Parenthood, so you won't have a choice to make....oh, crap....

You can interchange "baby" with "person" up there and I'm still good.

Bill Mancuso
And thank you Kathy, for proving my point that you think Superman is better at fighting crime than the police. Metaphorically, of course.

As for PP routinely covering up statutory rape - could you find one, just one non-right-wing, extremist, pro-life, anti-choice source on that allegation? Just one? One that didn't send a girl with a video in an undercover sting, posing as an underage teenager, making false rape claims and edit out the part where PP did alert child services and the police? The exact same tactic used on ACORN. Just one.

Your question - "You think a woman isn't pregnant with a baby unless she wants it to be one and I'm delusional?" - Are you saying no woman has ever gotten pregnant unless she wanted to? And after the woman wanted to get pregnant, she wanted to get an abortion because it would be a fun thing to do? Just for kicks? Instead of, say, getting her ears pierced? Now tell me which ethnicity you think are getting abortions all willy-nilly and where you think abortion clinics are located. I could just re-post what you previously wrote the last time we did this dance.

[This is an argument that the right-wing makes all the time - that women only get pregnant when they want to, then change their minds and want an abortion. I have come to understand that they make this argument because they are fucking assholes.]

Oh, sorry. To answer your question - yes. You are delusional. Uncivilized as that may seem.

What you do is state things that exist only in what I refer to as the "Fox-o-sphere." That is, things that are presented as fact on FOX (or other right-wing 'news' sources), but don't exist in the real world. Like 'Obamacare Death Panels.' They don't exist in the real world, but in the Fox-o-sphere, they are fact. Or when a non-partisan CBO report supports something the Democrats are for, that's considered the "liberal-controlled CBO." And the statistics are called lies. But if a non-partisan CBO report supports something the Republicans are for, it's considered non-partisan gospel truth.

P.S. - Who did I blame? And for what?

P.P.S. - What is NARAL?

P.P.P.S. - Damn you, Mark.

And, abortion saves actual, full grown, viable babies from dumpsters and garbage bags, and women from coat hangers, being forced to be tied to a specific man- no matter what- for at least 18 years and being stuck in a situation in which they will either have to be absent in the raising of their child, or perpetually poor due to lack of government support, so, yeah, Sanger would be proud! Lack of choice binds women and forces them into subjugation- at the very least of their bodies- Sanger was against the subjugation of women.

Kathy has posted both the edited and full versions of the tapes. People have been fired and PP has announced they will be retraining other staff. In KS, 165 abortions performed on girls at ages which demanded by law be reported for investigation of abuse, only one was reported, the AG is investigating. Other than that, there is no proof, but that's generally the case when it comes to crime and cover ups. If you have no idea what NARAL is, perhaps you are less educated on the matter than you believe as many of your beliefs are supported by facts one co-founder admitted were flat out lies.
As for Sanger, being against the subjugation of women comes in handy when you are for eugenics. It is this logical extension of abortion, used to weed out undesirables- that is my issue. Not many girls born in China and an AfAmer poulation @30% lower than it would have been here in the U.S. and that's now. [This 'eugenics weeding out undesirables' argument is something that floats around the Fox-o-sphere and is also an utter fiction. I know this because my li'l self-de-friended right-wing buddy, Gomer brought up the very same notion in this post.]

Bill Mancuso
Googled NARAL. Because I don't know about one organization, this means to you that I don't know what my own beliefs are? You think what I think hinges on what someone else thinks? Or that my research is based on one biased source? Sounds like you're describing yourself. [It's called 'projection.']

As for PP covering up rape (wait, how do Republicans define rape now?), I'm not saying it doesn't happen. There are always going to be bad people - one person, Amy Woodruff was fired for her personal actions - but that doesn't signify an entire corrupt organization as Conservatives in their war on the middle class would have you believe. Any system designed to help can always be abused. But you and the rest of the Republican party ludicrously try to make it seem like PP was solely founded to cover up rape and force abortions on women. And also that women love to run out every Sunday night and grab an abortion at 'Abortions R Us' in the mall on the way to Dairy Queen for an Oreo Blizzard as if it's not a seriously contemplated health issue.

That IS delusional.

These alleged 165 underage abortions investigated by the Kansas Attorney General you brought up - would that be ex-Kansas Attorney General Phil Kline who is right now in court defending himself against ethics charges that in his pro-life witch-hunt to rid the state of abortion services, he: Told the Supreme Court that his investigation wasn’t seeking identities of specific women who received abortions, but in 2005, Kline’s staff recorded the license plates of visitors to Dr. Tiller’s clinic and subpoenaed guests’ names from a hotel often used by patients for purposes of cross-checking to illegally invade the medical privacy of patients; Mishandled redacted medical files by storing them in an open garage, a private vehicle and the dining room of an investigator and took some copies of the Tiller records with him when he became district attorney; Presented cherry-picked information to a Johnson County grand jury for purposes of investigating Planned Parenthood without cause; Relied on data that Kline’s staff knew to be flawed to justify the investigation before a judge? Would that be the Kansas underage abortions you're talking about? The completely invented ones that never happened but are true in the Fox-o-sphere?

After being harassed, stalked and shot in both arms in 1993, Dr. Tiller was murdered on May 31, 2009. He was shot in the head while sitting in a pew at his church by a cowardly pro-life scumfuck. Do you agree that murder and terrorism are viable tactics to get what you want? A good little Republican would.

And hey guess what - your example of the right-wing, extremist organization, posting the allegedly full video is the exact organization that set up all the dozens of fake underage sex-worker sting operations until they found an instance where one person did actually do something bad. Maybe if they also posted all the other dozens of videos from all the other sting ops to show this type of corruption is widespread in PP, this would make their case at least somewhat credible. Instead of just one person who was fired. It only seems to me like a bunch of hot air being blown to trump up a political/religious cause. And Lila Rose, the president of Live Action, worked with James O'Keefe - the ex-FOX "News" hero who edited his videos to make ACORN look guilty (proven false in the real world but still true in the Foxosphere [or, at least just not covered after it was proven false just to keep the supposition alive for those who only watch FOX] - On June 14, 2010, the U.S. Government Accountability Office released its findings which showed that there was no evidence that ACORN, or any of its related organizations, had mishandled any of the $40 million in federal money which they had received). Classy bunch, those people with an agenda are. And the $125,000 Ms. Rose received from an anonymous donor to pull this shit on PP - which prevented real people with real needs from getting help - could have been put to better use by perhaps donating the money to the Polaris Project or any other organization that actually fights sex trafficking.

But hey guess what again - in the Sargasso Sea gyre of Conservative news coverage on how evil PP is, I found one non-right-wing, extremist, pro-life, anti-choice source that says PP had been informing the FBI and the Attorney General of the alleged trafficking of under-age sex-workers even though they suspected it was a hoax - by Live Action - to discredit PP.

Ooh, another non-right-wing, extremist, pro-life, anti-choice source:

And one more:

So, your 'facts' are again just debunked, right-tainted misinformation. But you'll just ignore that and move on to some other disprovable nonsense.

Hmm... And I wonder what else the Republicans are doing to the women and children they hate so much yet claim they want to help? Perhaps this...?

The House Republicans cut Special Supplemental Nutrition Program for Women, Infants and Children by $758 million, Community Health Centers by $1.3 billion, Maternal and Child Health Block Grants by $210 million, Family Planning (including Planned Parenthood) by $327 million, and the FDA by $220 million. Yup, they cut almost every government service that might help a pregnant woman carry a fetus to term. They also de-funded the Affordable Care Act (ACA), which would allow uninsured pregnant women to receive health insurance thanks to the preexisting condition language.

Repealing ACA, according to the non-partisan CBO would increase the deficit by $230 billion. But I'm sure in this instance, you believe it's the 'liberal-controlled CBO' and they're lying.

Shall we next talk about how Republicans pretend to care about small businesses and job growth?

Damn you, Mark.

I think we got us a love connection.

Any system designed to help can always be abused." Case in point our method for getting "representatives" into office. [Sadly true.]

I know I'm falling. A little anger managment for a certain someone and who knows? Perhaps we might have a real discussion, one in which my pro-life stance fails to make me an assassin. Any system designed to help can be abused, but there cannot be a psycho who's actions nullify what he pretended to believe? That's reasonable. Now explain how the center in PN was clearly the fault of the right. Unless we've discussed that already, I've better things to do than memorize or reread past discussions. hope you feel like a WINNER!!!!

BTW-thank you for looking up what I asked. Seriously.

Bill Mancuso
Debunking the spread of copious amounts of nonsense with facts means I'm angry? OK. I accept. Hrr! Bill mad! Bill SMASH!!

When did I accuse you of being an assassin? Don't try and twist what I said with a red herring. You know who are assassins? Assassins. [I am often told by right-wingers what I said. Unfailingly, I have never said what I am accused of having said. This 'confusion' tactic is not very good, as anyone can scroll up to see if I said it or not. Actually, I should call it the "I hate facts that contradict my bullshit. I will invent even more bullshit in a futile attempt to cause further confusion since I have no truthful argument in my favor" tactic.]

What do you mean by "a" psycho's actions nullify what he pretended to believe? Just ONE person murdered an abortion doctor against his “pro-life” stance? As in the equivalent to your sole example of Amy Woodruff at Planned Parenthood? How about all the thousands of incidents of crime against abortion providers? I'm sure you want specific names of all the people committing these crimes to back up what I say instead of just saying it happens and expecting you to believe it. Done. Look these names up: Shelly Shannon, Scott Roeder, James Kopp, Paul Jennings Hill, Michael F. Griffin, Peter James Knight, Matt Goldsby, Jimmy Simmons, Kathy Simmons, Kaye Wiggins (those last 4 people bombed a clinic and 2 physicians' offices on Christmas Day and called the bombings "a gift to Jesus on his birthday."), Martin Uphoff, John Earl (a Catholic priest), Patricia Hughes and Jeremy Dunahoe, David McMenemy, Paul Ross Evans, Chad Altman and Sergio Baca, Matthew L. Derosia. To name a few.

Operation Rescue and the American Coalition of Life Activists post "WANTED" signs with names, home addresses, telephone numbers, and other personal information of abortion providers and advocate violence toward them. These are regarded as 'Hit Lists.' Photos of abortion doctors that have been killed because of these hit lists are posted on websites with a red 'X' exactly like a movie serial killer's hit list.

Just Google the terrorist organization, 'Army of God.'

In the U.S., violence directed toward abortion providers has killed at least eight people, including four doctors, two clinic employees, a security guard, and a clinic escort.

According to statistics gathered by the National Abortion Federation, an organization of abortion providers, since 1977 in the United States and Canada, there have been 17 attempted murders, 383 death threats, 153 incidents of assault or battery, and 3 kidnappings committed against abortion providers. Property crimes committed against abortion providers have included 41 bombings, 173 arsons, 91 attempted bombings or arsons, 619 bomb threats, 1630 incidents of trespassing, 1264 incidents of vandalism, and 100 attacks with butyric acid. The New York Times also cites over one hundred clinic bombings and incidents of arson, over three hundred invasions, and over four hundred incidents of vandalism between 1978 and 1993. The first clinic arson occurred in Oregon in March 1976 and the first bombing occurred in February 1978 in Ohio.

After the real anthrax attacks in America in 2001, there have been 655 bioterror threats made against abortion providers. None of the "anthrax" in these cases was real. Clayton Waagner mailed hoax letters containing a white powder to 554 clinics. On December 3, 2003, Waagner was convicted of 51 charges relating to the anthrax scare.

What is "the center in PN?" Maybe I missed it or it's a typo. I will then be happy to explain.

Hope I feel like a WINNER?!!!! ZING! You got me with your condescending tag, there. I'm so embarrassed. Now everyone sees me for the fraud you've clearly exposed me to be. 

You also avoided everything I said. Again.

Of course I looked up NARAL. Knowledge is power. I learned that from Schoolhouse Rocky. He's a chip off the schoolhouse, Schoolhouse Rock!

Damn you, Mark. And CONGRATULATIONS on the baby!

I am just a humble agent of healthy public discourse.

It’s not usually me that changes the topic. I did not mean to, but it happened. Oh, well. At the end of the day, it doesn’t really matter what the topic is with a Republican. Facts don’t mean much to them. Almost every single one has at some point said, “I don’t care.” And they don’t. All they care about is what Hannity and drug addict Limbaugh tell them what to think. That's what makes it so easy to refute all the things they say that don't really exist. 

Not that they care.

If more people actually cared about what would help everyone, instead of just their Party (team), this would be a better world.

 Thanks to all the makers of these posters. 

No comments:

Post a Comment