I’ll never understand parents that bestow their children
with first names similar to their surnames.
I wonder why people feel the need to make up stories about
all the Obama “scandals,” when he hasn’t done anything wrong, but feel the need
to go out of their way to give NJ Governor Chris Christie “the benefit of the
doubt” when he’s obviously guilty as fuck.
Ha Ha! No, I don’t. They’re called Republicans.
This discussion is pretty damn entertaining. And holy shit
does it fly off on wild, non-Chris Christie tangents. I tried to keep it on
track, but I also kept proving them wrong, so they had to keep changing the subject.
Enjoy…
Alan
And this is our corruption free governor lol
Bill Mancuso
So, apparently Christy wasn't being facetious when he said he was dressed as a DOT worker and
putting cones out.
Jolene
Did they find out for sure? What was the outcome? In other
words did they prove it? [Laying the groundwork for
the “Christie is innocent until proven guilty” argument. Which would be
perfectly fine if it also applied to Democrats, who seem to be automatically
guilty. Stay tuned.]
Alan
Come on, this guy runs such a tight ship. I find it
impossible that he knew nothing about this. [That’s
true. It is common knowledge that Christie has always known about everything
that goes on in NJ. Except this time, right? ABC News: Chris Christie's staff linked to George Washington Bridge closure via emails (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
]
Jolene
I never said that. I asked if they proved it for sure yet?
Alan
I didn't mean it to sound that way, sorry.
Bill Mancuso
Just a matter of time. Investigators are just getting all
their ducks in a row for the prosecution.
[There's a reason Alan immediately backed down and I kept my answer short and non-antagonistic. Stay tuned.]
Jolene
He said, she said, facts prove ??????
Jolene
I think he already said he knew about it. [Excuse #1: Sowing doubt.] He said he was under
the impression they were having a traffic study, nothing more. [Excuse #2: Repetition of debunked lie.] Also,
your mayor from Hoboken was already caught not being truthful under oath. [Shifting the blame. Notice no proof is needed.]
We will see how this turns out. Now put some of that energy New Jersey in about
finding out how 4 Americans were murdered in Benghazi [You
knew Benghazi was coming, right?] and a border guard has still not
been accounted for after all these years. [Changing
the topic by use of straw man argument.] After all they died. They
were someone!s sons. [Pulling at heart-strings of
unrelated topic to cement diversionary topic in place.] I bet this
Christie thing may be solved first. [Mistakenly
redirect topic back to original topic after all that hard work was put in.]
[Also, I never understood this
line of thought: “We can’t have an investigation into incident #2 until
incident #1 is solved because America is incapable of holding two
investigations at the same time.”]
** **
** **
[Hey, I tried.]
Bill Mancuso
Christie still denies he knew anything.
There was no traffic study according to every official. By
the time Christie said it, it was already known to be a lie for cover-up
purposes.
The last Hoboken Mayor, Peter Cammarano was guilty of
corruption, not the current one, Dawn Zimmer. [This
is not about Bridgegate. This incident of corruption is about Christie holding
back Hurricane Sandy relief funds from Hoboken unless Mayor Zimmer awarded
Christie’s buddies some prime land for development. Because he’s got the
ability to have more than one corrupt scheme going on at the same time. He’s a
multi-tasker.]
And Christie fired his Deputy Chief of Staff, Bridget Kelly
for ordering the shutdown, but says he didn't ask her why she did it. There are
only two possible reasons for not asking - he's completely inept as a leader,
or he's maneuvered a 'plausible deniability' defense for a crime he knew about.
Aside from Benghazi having nothing to do with Bridgegate,
there are already a half dozen reports laying out exactly how 4 Americans were
killed there. Here's the latest on that non-scandal:
And by 'border guard' if you mean the Fast & Furious
thing, that non-scandal was solved 2 years ago.
Since we're bringing up unrelated events, what about the 241
Americans killed in Beirut when Reagan told them they couldn't have any
ammunition? What about the 109 people killed in the 13 Embassy attacks during
GW Bush's presidency that McCain and Graham kept going on TV and saying there
was no need for investigations?
Getting back to Bridgegate, I find it highly suspect that a
man who knew everything that was going on at all times in his state, didn't
hear about the bridge thing until 3 months after I and the rest of the country
did. Not to mention everyone in his office knew about it - even ordered it to
happen.
But yes, there's no proof. That's why there's an ongoing
investigation. Although he's been caught lying about multiple issues so far,
nothing hard about the bridge yet.
Yet.
Jolene
Your facts are wrong about Benghazi. [Meaning: I disagree with the facts about Benghazi, so I’m going to
ignore them and keep repeating what they say on FOX “News.”] The
mother of Smith was just on TV crying the other day because she has no answers.
If that were my son I would be banging on the WH door every day. I think things
are much more serious when someone dies. [Except
when Republicans are in charge, then it’s no big deal.] The border
guard was killed with the weapons that Holder gave to the cartels. [said FOX “News.” I didn't read that article you posted because I don't want my biased opinion contradicted.] These are current situations
under the current administration. [Unlike the bridge
closure which happened five months ago. Who can even really remember anything
about that?] What about the closed own of the government when the
park rangers were told to close the parks and make it miserable for everyone. [Obama: “Um… I want you to, um, close the parks. Um, I
want to make everyone, um, miserable.”] These are all current
situations. Now we focus all our attention on a highway closing. [We can’t concentrate on all our fake, manufactured
scandals against Obama AND a real one against Christie, so I suggest we forget
the real one and keep going after the Kenyan. It’s exhausting automatically
repeating these fake scandals like Pavlov’s dog.] It's just a way to
stop Christie from running fork president because they fear him. The current
mayor of Hoboken, is the one that lied. BTW did Corzine ever find the billion
dollars that he lost? [By the way, what the fuck does
Corzine have to do with shutting the bridge? Or anything else you keep talking
about?]
** **
** **
Jolene
Let's face it Jersey has always been corrupt. But you bet
they have watched every move Christie has made and this is the best they can do
and it isnt even proven yet. Really????. I'm not a fan of Christie but i hate
how he's accused of bullying when I've seen much worse by this administration. [I hate Christie because he shook Obama’s hand but he’s a
Republican, so I’ll defend him in this instance.]
Jolene
NJ=Blue State that elected a Republican Governor. How would
he have gotten re-elected if there were so many other situations. With all the
left liberals against him, it could never have happened unless they like what
he has done with the state thus far. I think NJ is tired of paying high taxes [So they voted for him because he raised them higher?]
and I know that's why I would never move back there. I think you both were in
maybe 3rd grade when Reagan was president. Know that is really going back far
and your memory of Reagan unique. [I have no facts
to back the bullshit I’m Pavlovianly repeating, so I’ll just try to discredit
you personally with an ad hominem attack. “You’re too young to know anything.
And as a Republican who hates education, I know there’s no way you can possibly learn
anything about history. Those are the principles that the Founding Fathers built this
country on.] The attacks under GW Bush were answered for [When, exactly?] and also by terrorists and not
because of a video. Benghazi pleaded for help and got none and was lied about
it NOT being a terrorist attack. They also were not soldiers like the previous
embassy attacks. [And how many non sequitur talking points can you cram into one sentence? According to the report,
terrorists planned an attack, but were also angered by the video. Also, Obama
said it was a terrorist attack first thing in the morning after the attacks.
Ignoring that fact doesn’t make it go away. Soldiers or not soldiers is
irrelevant. The parameters seem to change depending on which Party is in charge
at the time.]
** **
** **
[Seriously, I tried.]
Bill Mancuso
They are not "my" facts about Benghazi. They are
facts about Benghazi. The mother's questions were answered. In several reports.
Ignoring them doesn't make them "not answered." Read the article. [She never did. It would contradict her FOX “News” Clockwork
Orange-esque reconditioning.]
Holder didn't give guns to cartels. Read the article. [She never did. See comment above.]
Republicans happily took credit for voting to shut down the
government against everyone's wishes.
[Guess which two links were just
ignored?]
Shutting down the government includes federal parks. Then,
just like the hypocrites they are, Republicans showed up at the parks they shut
down and yelled at the park rangers who were volunteering their time to do
their duty. Congressman Randy Neugebauer (R-Texas) even had an ethics complaint
filed against him for his actions.
[Ignored.]
And - while the Republicans were the ones showing up at the
parks to use for political gain, they were saying they didn't want Democrats to
use the parks as a tool for political gain. [Vets
weren’t happy about it. OTB: Veterans Didn’t Like Being Used As Republican Political Props Yesterday
]
It is a fact that Chris Christie, or at the very least, his
office, actually shut down the busiest bridge in the world. On the anniversary
of September 11th. Not only did that affect millions of people going to work
and school for days, but emergency services and Homeland Security as well. And
it is a fact no one knows why. That's a real scandal that actually, for a
verifiable fact, exists in the real world, which needs to be investigated. Democrats
weren't afraid of Christie. He was never going to be nominated to run for
president by the Republican Party anyway. He shook Obama's hand, remember?
Beside that, the vast majority of Republicans in the South never liked
Republicans from the North. And after the Romney debacle, they'll not even
consider one from the North again for many many decades. [Ignored.]
Current Hoboken Mayor Zimmer has not lied about anything.
That has never even been reported anywhere, so I don't know why you keep saying
that. You demand proof for Christie, but an allegation that you made up about
Zimmer is OK? Sounds like your support for Christie is just because he's a
Republican and you're vilifying Zimmer because she's a Democrat - not based on
what's actually happening.
What does Corzine have to do with anything? (Not that
Benghazi or Fast & Furious or National Parks have anything to do with
Bridgegate either.)
Yes, Jersey is cartoonishly corrupt. Both Parties have been
keeping up their end. Except for Chris Christie?
Christie is being accused of bullying simply because he has
made a documented career of bullying.
What are the "worse things" that you have seen by
the Obama administration? And I mean real things, not things they made up on
FOX "News." [Never answered. But you knew that already, didn't you?]
** **
** **
Christie got elected by making a lot of back room deals with
Mayors. This has been documented. Also, the Democrats didn't back their
candidate. It's odd to me that so many people would vote him back into office
while also voting for many of the things he was against. [Minimum wage hike, marriage equality, abortion rights...] I can't explain that
other than he is a bigger-than-life cartoonish celebrity that they thought helped them during Sandy. [Notice I wrote "thought."]
You want to know what he's done with the state thus far? He
raised NJ taxes. 19% property tax increase, now at a record high. He spent $123
million more in 2012 than revenues collected - only balancing the budget after
raiding the state surplus fund. Cut school funding by $1.5 billion & handed
out $2.1 billion to corporations - higher than the entire past 10 years. Spent
$24 million in NJ tax dollars on a separate election two weeks prior to the
regular election just to keep Cory Booker-voting Democrats away from his
re-election. Largest transit fare hike in NJ history - partly to help pay for the
ARC tunnel, which he cancelled, claiming NJ couldn't afford it, which was a lie
because the Fed was going to cover most of the cost and NY was going to cover
the bulk of the rest. It would have been the largest job creation project in
America, but now he has that fake "fiscal responsibility" tag that
Republicans pretend to value. And he's used the money from the increased tolls
that was supposed to go to the ARC tunnel and used it for infrastructure
spending since he drained the budget - which, "coincidentally," his
brother profited from. Vetoed tax increases for millionaires. Gave Panasonic
$102 million in tax breaks to only create 200 jobs over 10 years – wow, 20 jobs
a year. Awarded a no-bid contract to politically connected AshBritt Inc, for
Sandy clean-up, costing taxpayers millions more - which is currently under
federal investigation. NJ poverty rate is at a 52-year high. Not counting
federal stimulus, Christie needed more fund-raids and fiscal gimmicks to
balance the budget than Corzine - which he could have prevented by simply not
cutting taxes for millionaires. NJ unemployment rate higher than national
average and job growth slower than neighboring states and the national average.
I pay attention to what is done, not said. Corzine sucked. Christie is just as
bad. He gives away free millions in hand-outs to corporations and reduces their
taxes, while screwing the people by raising their taxes. Just like Republicans
do. [Ignored. Seeing a pattern? I hope you noticed it years ago.]
My knowledge of Reagan and what happened to the 241 soldiers
in Beirut is just fine.
The attacks during the Bush administration were never
answered for. My point is, 13 (actually more) embassies were attacked,
resulting in 109 deaths and John McCain and Lindsey Graham went on TV every
time and said there was no need for investigations because “these things
happen.” There was no Republican outrage. Apparently, it's not more serious
when someone dies if Republicans are in command. Four people were killed in One
attack under the Obama administration and Republicans haven't shut up since.
Investigations have been going on continually since it happened and a half
dozen reports have come out - all concluding that there was no scandal or
cover-up but Republicans keep wasting taxpayer money with more and more and
more investigations. They even put out fake emails at one point. Republicans
have manufactured evidence on multiple occasions for all the fake scandals they
keep inventing. No one is saying what happened in Benghazi wasn't terrible.
Mistakes were made. But Obama didn't kill those Americans. There were no lies.
And there was no cover-up. And no scandal.
Plus, Benghazi still has nothing to do with Bridgegate.
** **
[I wonder if FOX "News" informed their viewers of this information? Ha ha.]
** **
And you can add this to Christie's ever-increasing list of
corruption:
And this too, while we’re at it:
[Do I need to tell you these
articles were duly ignored, as well?]
Jolene
Breezing through your long sermon, [Maybe
you should have actually read it instead of just breezed through it.]
I can see that you really don't understand politics [ad
hominem] and as I said before Beruit was wartime involving soldiers
not civilians that were begging for help. [Irrelevant
distinction.] You are so busy watching the hate channel MSNBC [So hateful, it hurts.] and getting comedian
reports such as Jon Stewart [I don’t remember
bringing up MSNBC or Jon Stewart, so I don’t know – oh, I don’t believe the
bullshit she’s repeating, so she thinks I’m a Liberal. Right.] that
I think you aren't getting the full stories. [As
reported by FOX “News.”] [I know she hasn’t mentioned FOX here, so I seem like
a hypocrite, but she has in past conversations said to watch FOX to get the
truth that the “liberal main stream media” won’t tell you.]
** **
** **
Once again, Jersey liked something for a 2 term in a
democratic state,. [Ignored once again, back room deals, cartoonish celebrity.] Shame on brushing Benghazi under the carpet with parents
crying for information. Corzine was referenced because it just proves the
corruption in NJ that still is not as bad as Chicago. Mayor Zimmer has lied
under oath about not keeping records twice while now she said she has proof by
a journal. She was asked twice under oath and said she had nothing....now she
has something and has no comment. Hillary has said herself that Benghazi was
her biggest regret. The reason for the Hillary/Benghazi reference is because
this is to put Hillary in a better light. [?]
You need to watch all the news stations as I do. [No,
you don’t. FOX, Breitbart, Newsmax and Glenn Beck don’t count as ‘multiple
sources.’] Now even Stewart is making fun of the left. He also
thought Christie's mess was no big deal but I don't take him seriously as he
has said he is a comedian. [I'm going to use him as an example and discredit him in the same sentence because I can't think for myself and I'm just repeating as many FOX talking points as I can remember.] However, your mind is made up from the blogs that
you read [Yes, I get my information from bloggers
(like me). You caught me. The facts that you disagree with are now all
discredited.] so no sense trying to change it. You, without proof,
have already convicted Christie. He's entitled to his day in court. People I
know in Jersey are happy with Christie. They're happy someone is doing
something. [Doing something? He’s doing something,
alright. I guess you missed that giant, yet partial, list of things he’s done
that I wrote.] Worry more about the NSA, IRS, the Healthcare, EPA,
etc., that never apologize and continue to bully. I don't know where you are
coming from but in this country you are innocent until proven guilty. I'll give
you the last word [#1.] because I can see how important that is to you and how you
are hell bent on hating Christie with no real proof. Like I said, I'm not a
Christie fan but he is innocent until they have real proof.
** **
** **
[I totally stopped trying.]
Bill Mancuso
I understand politics. Quite well, in fact.
Beirut involved Reagan sending soldiers to a warzone and
telling them they couldn't use ammunition because they were on a peace-keeping
mission, resulting in 241 American deaths. Then he invaded Grenada in retaliation.
I did in no way, shape or form, "brush Benghazi under
the carpet." I pointed out the fact that all the questions were answered.
I cannot help it if people wish to ignore those facts in order to keep trying
to manufacture a scandal/conspiracy against Obama since there is no actual
scandal/conspiracy.
Now we have involved Chicago? I can't figure how any of this
extraneous stuff has to do with Christie. [Obama is from Chicago, moron. That's where Chicago-style politics comes from. And Chicago Obama is worse than NJ Christie. You're so stupid, how can I believe anything you say?]
Mayor Zimmer has not lied at any time. They just keep saying
she has on FOX "News" and Breitbart.com. Why do you insist
repeatedly that Christie have his day in court, but Mayor Zimmer is already
guilty and convicted because FOX "News" invented information that
doesn't even remotely exist? Mayor Zimmer has not had her day in court, but
she is guilty? And Zimmer was instructed not to speak by the Feds because of the
ongoing Federal investigation into Christie.
Hillary/Benghazi has nothing to do with Christie's
corruption and a half dozen reports have already explained what happened there.
Ignoring that fact doesn't make it go away. She took responsibility because
she's a competent leader. Obama also took responsibility. Maybe if Republicans
hadn't cut almost a half billion dollars out of embassy security funds prior to
Benghazi, to Hillary's protests, this could have ended up differently. And
since Benghazi, Republicans have further voted to cut embassy security funding.
That's how concerned Republicans are about embassy security.
Stewart makes fun of the left all the time. If you want to
know what he's doing, you should actually watch him instead of listening to
what the right tells you he does. And he certainly did think closing down the
GW Bridge for no reason was a big deal.
I have in no way, shape or form, already convicted Christie.
You can tell because of my previous statement: "But yes, there's no proof.
That's why there's an ongoing investigation. Although he's been caught lying
about multiple issues so far, nothing hard about the bridge yet." I have
merely pointed out that he has, on multiple occasions, been caught lying, bullying
and allegedly misappropriating Sandy funds. It hasn't been proven, but every
bit of the evidence certainly seems to point in one direction.
The NSA scandal was first reported in 2006 under the Bush
administration. It was called The Patriot Act. Here's an article from 5/11/06:
Here's another from 11/14/06:
[I'm not trying to take the heat off Obama. He fucking expanded this program and then said, "What? Who me? I'm unhappy this is happening." I'm just pointing out he didn't start it and Republicans used to LOVE the NSA spying program under Bush.
In the heat of furious typing, I kind of flubbed the point that Republicans are hypocritical stumps. It's ok, though. She ignored it all anyway.]
In the heat of furious typing, I kind of flubbed the point that Republicans are hypocritical stumps. It's ok, though. She ignored it all anyway.]
There is literally no IRS scandal. It's a complete fiction
invented by right-wing media. Every single right-wing group that applied,
received their 501(c)(4) tax exempt status. Only one liberal organization,
Emerge America, was denied that status.
How is that a scandal? Literally nothing happened.
Except to liberals.
Yes, how dare Obama try to get affordable healthcare to
people. He should give them guns with which to defend their health instead.
By the way, I'm enjoying my now affordable health care that
I was able to afford (a platinum plan, even) thanks to the Patient Protection
and Affordable Care Act, aka "Obamacare." I was even able to tack on
a dental plan, it was so affordable. And this is in spite of my Republican
Governor who has tried very hard to prevent me from having health care by not
implementing a state exchange. I had to go through the federal exchange. He
just wanted me to die poor, I guess. And the poorest and senior citizens are
still not getting health care because Governor Deal refused the Medicare &
Medicaid expansions.
I'm not sure what the EPA scandal is other than not
regulating and inspecting enough leaking chemical storage plants and exploding
fertilizer plants.
Who never apologizes? Obama? How can that be if he went on
an "apology tour?" Republicans need to get their rhetoric straight.
It's like when they said hated America because he followed Reverend Wright for
20 years, but also demand that he's a Muslim. He's Christian and Muslim? Is
that a new religion? Chruslim? Mustian?
Who is Obama bullying? Or do you mean Obama is being bullied
by Republicans, resulting in their lowest approval rate ever? They, for a fact,
conspired against the President of the United States of America to prevent him
from accomplishing anything. That is a literal conspiracy. And un-American. And
traitorous.
I am not hell-bent on hating Christie. I just follow the
facts.
Thank you for giving me the last word. I enjoyed presenting
even more facts to support my case against all the things that have nothing to
do with Chris Christie. This concludes tonight’s sermon.
Jolene
You must have me confused with my dear nephew. [What the fuck?] I have nothing to say about
your nightly sermons. [You sure seemed to say a
lot.] We will see how things turn out. If Christie is wrong, shame
on him, if he is found innocent, shame on the left. [Yes,
the Left is mounting a witch-hunt against Christie. The Right simply adores
him. Oooh, pinch his cheeks!] My advice, stop hating so much and
have an open mind. [Pretty sure everything I said
was based not on hate but on facts, which I need an open mind to accept (unlike
some people around here who shall remain nameless).] BTW, I'm an
independent [who bases all my beliefs on what Sean
Hannity tells me to believe. You obviously (painfully) are not.] and
my husband ran on a democratic ticket in Jersey many years ago [Dinnertime conversation must be fun.] and
nothing will ever convince me that you ever watched FOX News. [I used to, but since nothing they ever say is remotely
anchored in reality, I would consider it a severe waste of time to do so now.
However, I do know about the lies they say because it's reported all the time. But I also don’t remember trying to convince you I watch FOX “News,” so, uh…
what?] I'm not brain washed into how I think. [You have been repeating nothing but 100% misinformation
and debunked conspiracy theories that only exists on Bullshit Mountain. You
are, indeed, brainwashed.] This post was about convicting Christie
without a trial....I will repeat, innocent until proven guilty. [Then why did YOU bring up about 15 unrelated topics?....I
will repeat, “But yes, there's no proof. That's why there's an ongoing
investigation. Although he's been caught lying about multiple issues so far,
nothing hard about the bridge yet." You may ignore it yet again if you
wish. Just like every other bit of factual information I have presented for
you, the jury.] Jersey has seen much worse. [What
does that have to do with anything? I mean, other than to try and take the heat
off Christie. Something shouldn’t be investigated because a worse thing
happened somewhere else? Oh, right. I forgot. America isn’t capable of having
two investigations going at the same time. You’re right, we should look into
the worse one instead. Which, incidentally, would be Bridgegate since it's an actual incident.] I gave you this much more for my respect for
my nephew. [More fucking what? Goddamn made-up bullshit? Uh,
thank you?] Now you can continue your last sermon. [Nah. You pretty much ended that when you brought up your
nephew for no motherfucking reason.] I won't comment. [#2. Where have I heard that before?]
[48 minutes later…]
Jolene
.....sorry, one question for you......please tell me how
much are your monthly payments and deductible for Obamacare? Just curious. [$300mo. $1,000ded. No subsidies.]
Bill Mancuso
Don't know what the hell invoking the memory of my dead best
friend has to do with Christie, Benghazi or anything else. Confusing you with
him? That doesn't even make any sense except for one reason only: to provide
you with an excuse to bring him up.
Good day.
Jolene
You never answered my question as to what the cost was for
your Obamacare as far as deductible and monthly cost. My guess would be that
you probably didn't mention the costs because you expect everyone to pay for
your healthcare and that's why you were uninsured and are so defensive and
hateful of anyone that's not going to take care of you. [What the fucking bat-shit insane fuck does any of that mean? Trying to
randomly shoehorn Bill O’Reilly talking points into discussions really doesn’t
help. It sure is easier than thinking for yourself, but it doesn’t help.]
You seem able bodied enough to have paid for your own healthcare before
Obamacare. Wonder why you needed everyone else to pay for it? [When did I say anything even remotely like that? That
must be an O’Reilly-conditioned response to the word “Obamacare.” Pavlov would
be proud.] Also, he is my nephew and he was mentioned because the
only reason I wasted this much time on you was out of respect for him because
you were his friend, and for that reason only, I would never give you this much
of my time. I don't need an excuse to mention my nephew or godchild to you or
anyone else. I don't expect an answer to this question because I think we both
know the answers. So done with this conversation. [#3.] Have a nice evening. [Let's not pretend you wouldn't have stuck in here as long as it took to find some point that I was wrong on. I was presenting facts. You just needed to be right.]
Bill Mancuso
The things you are saying about health insurance are
[fucking] insanely uninformed. No one, at any point, has ever paid for my health
insurance. I pay for my health insurance. The fact that I am paying for it
literally means I am the person paying for it, not "everyone else."
Me purchasing insurance from a corporation is the epitome of capitalism and has
absolutely not a thing to do with "everyone else paying for it"
socialism. But keep unthinkingly repeating those dog-whistle phrases you've
been conditioned to blurt out by FOX "Independent News." It relieves
you of the burden of thinking for yourself.
To be clear, the ACA, or "Obamacare," is a law,
not a health insurer. This law protects people from being screwed by insurance
corporations. You still must purchase your insurance from a corporation. That
is capitalism. Nobody "else" pays for your insurance.
Do you mean to say you normally only speak to people who
agree with you - unless some outside force such as the respect of a nephew
irrelevant to the conversation compels you to do otherwise?
And this is the third time you have been done with this
conversation. What am I supposed to believe?
[Shockingly… back for #4.]
Jolene
Done - this dead horse has been beaten to death and it ain't
getting up. No logic whatsoever talking to someone that hates so much [What is this ‘hate’ thing about? That nonsensical claim
doesn’t negate any of the facts you wish to ignore. Also, why do you keep
coming back to beat this dead horse after repeatedly saying you’re done?]
[#5…]
Jolene
Obamacare = subsidy paid by tax payers making it affordable.
[True. This is a problem… because… ?]
[Hey, #6. Who’da thunk it?]
Jolene
This was in response to my other relative's post, Alan, it
had nothing to do with you. You injected yourself into it. [What fucking Bizarro World alternate universe does this
woman come from, where Alan posts something, she responds to it, there's a long discussion about it, then claims he
injected himself into someone else’s post? FOX “News” eats your brain.]
Alan
A good friend of mine who is an independent contractor who
has to pay for his own health insurance seems to be getting better offers on
the exchange. I know he's paying out about $300 per month and he did tell me it
will benefit him, by how much.. I don't know. [I
don’t know for sure, but I think he's talking about me. We spoke about this when
I signed up in December and that describes my situation. Hah. Good one, Alan.] I feel
that the exchanges will create better prices and more availability for people. [Which, they have.] I think it will work out in
the end, just needs some tweaking. [Definitely
true.] My biggest concern from the republicans, they did not put any
alternative health care reform fixes on the table. [True. Well, except for $5,000 vouchers that will help fuck all.]
All they did was put their energy into trying to repeal obama care, and tell
everyone that the American people really don't want this crap. [True again.] Obama won a second election for a
reason. [We have a winner! Actually, from what I
understand, whenever Republicans win, that’s what the people wanted. Whenever
Democrats win, it’s because they tricked the people somehow.]
[Before we go any further, let me explain the relationships here.
[Before we go any further, let me explain the relationships here.
“Dear Nephew”……... my best friend
of over 30 years, deceased
Alan………………......... his cousin
& friend of mine for almost as long
Jolene………………….... their aunt, whom
I do not know too wellBen……………………...... Jolene’s son; Alan & Dear Nephew’s cousin
Bill Mancuso………..... asshole who refuses to just leave stupid people alone]
Ben
The exchanges and marketplace rates are relative to poverty
level, family size, and other things. [True.]
The exchanges work with subsidies. [True. So far so
good.] Our taxes are paying for those subsidies. [Yes.] The poor get help, the middle class get
screwed, and the rich are not affected. [Danger!
Ship veering from course. Heading toward propaganda iceberg, dead ahead!]
This is nothing more than a distribution of wealth scheme where the middle
class are hit the hardest. [All hands! All hands to
your posts! We have collision!] To answer the above question, Obama
got reelected because he promises free things to people and the media paints a
picture of the republicans as being racist women haters. [Man the lifeboats! Baseless propaganda-berg has torn a
gash- no! It’s removed the entire hull of the ship! There is no integrity! To
the lifebo-glub glub glub…] The only defense the democrats have when
a republican makes any kind of point is the old "did you get that information
from Faux News? or you are a racist" [How can
someone who has already sunk to the bottom of the ocean still be talking?]
[He posted that article to prove the taxpayer subsidies, which is true. You really should read this. It points out all the things the Affordable Care Act does for us. I wish I posted it.]
** **
** **
Bill Mancuso
All of the middle class people I know who went through the
exchanges (including myself) did not get screwed. I'm not eligible for any
subsidies, yet my cost is very low. That's due to the competition the exchange
created. And that includes part of my payment being an ACA tax. The places
where poor people are getting screwed are in the Republican-controlled states
where they refused to implement the Medicaid expansions. Our taxes were already
paying for emergency rooms for all the people who couldn't afford health
insurance. Why didn't you complain then about 100% subsidized health costs?
Although yes, it is taxpayer subsidized, the ACA is designed to reduce that
previous 100% taxpayer expense. Which, for a fact, it does. Somehow, funneling
less taxes into health insurance costs is more upsetting to you. This is not
rational thought.
The middle class is arguably hit the hardest, but not by the
ACA. Try tax cuts and subsidies for rich people & corporations who pay no
taxes, which far outweighs any taxes used for the poor & middle class.
At some point, I would like someone to give an example where
Obama promised "free stuff" to anybody. Republicans love to claim
Obama has promised "free stuff" to explain why they lost two
elections to him, but fail to ever produce this mysterious "free
stuff." They just keep blindly repeating the exact phrase, "free
stuff" and expect me to think "free stuff" is proof of
"free stuff."
Yes, the media are falsely painting Republicans as racists
& women-haters. They've made up the whole thing. Luckily there are no
quotes, legislative acts or protest signs that could prove differently. [Must I be so damn sarcastic?]
[Yes.]
[Yes.]
Regarding racism:
Regarding the anti-women platform:
[That was in the year period between March 2011 & April 2012. It's been 2 years since this article.]
Actually, I don't call it Faux News. I call it FOX
"News."
Oh, and before I forget: Chris Christie.
[The following dozen or so posts
(excepting Alan) are a wonderful collection of right-wing talking points. A
fine example of how listening to FOX “News” repeat something over and over
turns lies into “facts.” Repetition + One Information Source = Ignorance.]
Ben
I'm glad you know people that did well, including yourself.
You must represent the majority. If any republican forced you to participate in
an activity that is not a requirement of living in the country [Health insurance is not related to ‘living’?]
(nor part of our constitution), [Like car insurance?
Homeowner’s insurance?] you would probably be pissed. By the way, we
are still paying 100% for illegals and the poor that are getting full
subsidies. [Glub, glub.] I love how the
Dems vilify the rich that are already paying the majority of the taxes. [Ho. Ly. Shit.] Those corporations employ most
of the middle class so I doubt tax breaks are hurting the middle as much as you
would like to think. Last time I checked, cell phones are free. [?]
Alan
From what I have read, the free "Obamaphone" [Oh, Ben was talking about “Obamaphones.” Don’t know why
he didn’t say that. Just saying ‘phones are free’ sounds stupid. Not that the
Obamaphone lie doesn’t sound stupid as well, but at least there would be some
sort of context.] is part of the Lifeline program which was
introduced in 1984. Basically they are giving out a cell phone in lieu of a
land line because landlines are going by the wayside. [Someone’s
paying attention.]
Ben
Then why do some people have 7 of them? It's still free. He
wanted proof. [And I said Obama hands out free cell
phones so that’s proof. Plus, I invented the idea that they all have 7 of them
so poor people sound even worse. I’m glad he didn’t ask for proof on the amount
of phones.]
[Actually, that's not fair. I don't know if he personally invented the "7 phones" idea. He may have gotten it from Sean Hannity.]
Alan
Have you seen an Obama phone? Let me tell you, it isn't an
iPhone 5S or Galaxy 4S, it's a pos flip with 250 min and no internet.
[And #7.]
Jolene
Alan.....why does anyone feel they are entitled to a phone.
Our [immigrant] families came here and
were given nothing and were able to raise families and worked to eat and live.
They didn't have healthcare, food stamps, etc. [And
were dirt poor, lived 15 to a one-bedroom shanty, half died in childbirth, were
sickly and died at age 40.] it is getting way out of hand and people
actually think they deserve all these things. Guess who's paying for it all?
Unless you are sick and unable, you should work for what you get. It's a
disgrace. There was free medical, it was called Medicaid. We have become a
nanny country. What happens when the money runs out? [But
I’m the one so full of hate. And while we’re on the subject, how about a
little more reading… AI: Your Lack Of Insight And Compassion Make You Ugly
]
Alan
What is the percentage of people who have multiple obama
phones? I bet a small percentage is scamming the system. [What would people (poor, rich, anywhere in between) need
7 phones for, anyway? Nobody has 7 cell phones. Ben is making shit up that
doesn’t even make any sense – if you think about it.]
[Again. Not fair. Maybe Ben didn't personally make that shit up.]
Jolene
It's all the free stuff Alan. We can't afford it and anyone
that thinks it's OK should personally do without new cars and toys and pay for
other people that don't want to work. [Who the fuck
is paying for- Amazing how many unsubstantiated right-wing talking point
dog-whistle buzz-words fit in an “independent” skull.] Isn't that
the liberal way. [As told by FOX “News.”]
Share your wealth. Everyone have the same. [Which perfectly
explains the record-breaking corporate profits + high unemployment & increasing
poverty rates. Wait…]
[What number are we up to now?]
Jolene
Look around and see how much debt we are in as a country [that Bush & Reagan left us with]. [Trickle-down economics,] It's not working.
** **
** **
Alan
I think most of the problem is simply because there simply
aren't any jobs. It's no longer the roaring Clinton 90's.
Jolene
Who's fault is that? [Two massive
tax cuts, two unpaid-for wars, and unpaid-for Medicare Part D are about 50% of
US deficit and jobs began hemorrhaging in mid 2007 – but I forget who it was
that was responsible for all of those. And I forget at the moment which Party
has filibustered every single jobs bill proposed in congress for the past 5
years.] Our President never worked on it. [Survey says: X] He was busy working on
Obamacare. Two years he had the house and senate and never worked on jobs. [Except for the dozen+ jobs bills that one of the Parties
filibustered.] Now employers are laying off people because of
Obamacare. [Survey says: XX] They are cutting hours so they don't have to cover them under
Obamacare. [Right. Which makes the employers assholes, not Obama.]
Jolene
And when posting articles, use sources that aren't left
blogs. [Use only right blogs.]
Ben
There are no jobs because Dems are driving evil CEOs and
corporations out of this country. [Survey says: XXX] How many companies that got grants opened
their plants over seas. Unions are killing jobs too. [Survey says: XXXX] Let's face it, some people
don't want to work because they get more for "free" than if they had
to work. [How many X's can the survey give?]
[A post is missing from here.]
Ben
We should be getting rid of the IRS not making them
stronger.
Jolene
absolutely. The IRS has too much power.
[A post is missing from here.]
Ben
Exactly Gomer. I was agreeing with you about the FAIR tax.
[You all remember Gomer, right? At some point he inserted himself into this
discussion. You may recall that I can’t see his posts because he blocked me on
Facebook. Because he’s fucking coward.]
[Also, I’m sure you’ve noticed by now that everything I prove wrong in this conversation is completely ignored and another Christie-unrelated topic is brought up to replace it. If you’ve been a somewhat regular reader of this blog, you may have noticed it is a common tactic of the right-wing.]
[Also, I’m sure you’ve noticed by now that everything I prove wrong in this conversation is completely ignored and another Christie-unrelated topic is brought up to replace it. If you’ve been a somewhat regular reader of this blog, you may have noticed it is a common tactic of the right-wing.]
Bill Mancuso
Wow. I missed a lot. I'll address each factually inaccurate
right-wing propaganda statement in the order in which they appear.
The mandate in the ACA is part of the original Republican
version of the Act that was designed in 1988 by the Conservative think-tank,
the Heritage Foundation - which was based on a proposal by Richard Nixon in
1974. The Republicans ran their plan as the free-market solution alternative
against Hillarycare in 1993 and have
been pushing it for 20 years. Mitt Romney implemented it in Massachusetts to
high success and praise. Suddenly, Republicans call their free-market solution
SOCIALISM because a Democrat will get credit for its success. They have been
trying to sabotage it ever since, even wasting $60 million on pandering votes
that were solely for donation-generating theatrics, since they know there's no
chance of repealing it.
"Illegals" are not allowed to participate in the
ACA. That is in the ACA law. You are repeating a right-wing lie.
The Dems do not vilify the rich. They want them to pay at
least the same percent of their income as everyone else. Yes, the rich pay more
in quantity, simply because they have more money. They pay (the ones that
actually pay taxes, that is - 4,000 of the wealthiest Americans have their
money in offshore accounts, paying no taxes, not to mention the 25 corporations
{in 2012} that paid no taxes {which would have been $92Billion} but also get
subsidies {which were $22Billion}, not to mention the $1.5Trillion corporations
have parked in offshore accounts not doing a damn thing for America) far less
of a percent of their income than the middle class & poor, which has
effectively shifted the burden of taxes onto them. Tax breaks for the wealthy
are hurting the economy, since the wealthy just keep that money and do not pump
it back into the economy.
Alan is correct. "Obamaphones" are another lie.
That program, which originated under the Reagan administration, involved the
then only available land lines. The Bush administration updated it to include
cellphones. That program is funded by telecommunications corporations through
the nonprofit organization, Universal Service Administrative Company. Not one
penny of it comes from taxes. And it has absolutely nothing to do with the
Obama administration.
Nobody has 7 free phones. You are repeating a right-wing lie
in order to shame and vilify poor people.
Nobody feels they are entitled to free phones. That is more
right-wing "poor-shaming." Phones are a necessity of life. They are
needed for emergency services and job connections. Families were paid an actual
living wage back then. Right now, minimum wage is set for a 1968 economy. Two
full-time jobs at minimum wage is still under the poverty level. Nobody thinks
they deserve food stamps. People are forced to go on food stamps because they
are paid nothing by ever-profiting corporations that pay little or no taxes.
Corporations are right now enjoying a 50-year profit high. They have not
created jobs. The wealth does not trickle down. It pours up. In fact, the
reason Walmart pays so little, is because they know the government will pay
their employees’ welfare. For another fact, just this week, Walmart lowered its
quarterly profit forecast - specifically citing that the Republicans' cut to
food stamps will cause the poor employees to have less money to spend.
We have not become a nanny state. Stop repeating
unsubstantiated right-wing rhetoric. Corporations are paying employees shit,
forcing them to need welfare.
Nobody "doesn't want to work." Republicans can't
constantly blame Obama for there being no jobs (while they are the ones
filibustering dozens of jobs bills proposed by Democrats) and simultaneously
blame "lazy" people not working and wanting "free stuff."
Republican create economic black holes and try to blame everyone else.
And Democrats have been more profitable to the nation as a whole.
Again, Our president did work on jobs. Republicans
filibustered every single bill. See above. Employers are laying off people and
cutting hours because they are greedy assholes. It has nothing to do with
Obamacare. They are just blaming Obamacare to hide the fact that they are
greedy assholes. For an example, that Papa John's asshole raised pizza prices,
cut employees' pay, cut employees' hours, and increased the delivery fee - all
well before the election and blamed it on Obama just to hide the fact that he's
a greedy asshole.
I didn't realize photographs, direct quotes and legislative
acts reported from legitimate news sources would A.) be considered "left
blogs" and B.) somehow not be a fact depending where that fact was given.
And do you really think right-wing media is going to report all that
right-wing racism and anti-woman legislation? I guess if Hannity didn't report
it, then it didn't happen.
Democrats are not driving CEO's out of this country. How
could that be if corporations have been enjoying 50-year record-breaking
profits? Stop repeating easily debunked right-wing rhetoric. Aside from that
fact, Obama has proposed cutting taxes for corporations that brought jobs back
to America from overseas - Republicans filibustered it. Obama has proposed tax
increases for corporations that shipped jobs overseas - Republicans
filibustered it.
Unions are not killing jobs. Unions protect workers.
Republicans are busting unions in order to even further decrease worker pay and
protect corporate profits, which is directly contributing to the increased
poverty rate. 'Republican-run, "right-to-work" states tend to have
lower average wages, spend less on education, have higher worker fatality rates
and have lower standards of living.'
** **
** **
People don't get more for "free" than working. And
again, nobody doesn't want to work. Yeah, that $500 per month welfare check is
high livin.'
The IRS has the smallest amount of employees and an
ever-decreasing budget. Not to mention that the corporations want tax code this complicated so they can take advantage
of all the breaks, loopholes and subsidies. That’s why the corporations wrote
them to be so complicated in the first place. What, you think poor people have
a say in how tax law is written? [I found it
laughable during the last Presidential election every time a Republican, like
TX Governor Rick Perry, would hold up a postcard prop
and say they were going to simplify the tax code so much, it could fit on a
postcard. Right.]
By "Gomer" (originally his actual first name) I
assume you mean Gomer (originally his actual first and last names). I can't see
his posts because he blocked me a couple years ago. [The
brave, manly-man that he is. So confident in his assertions.] However, as far as the
"FAIR" Tax nonsense goes, there is a reason no country has ever tried
a retail sales tax - it effectively shifts the burden of taxes off of the
wealthy and onto the middle class and poor - which is why Republicans and
Teabaggers and Libertarians love it. I will let Bruce Bartlett (Ronald Reagan's
executive director of the Joint Economic Committee, and GHW Bush's senior
policy analyst & deputy assistant secretary for economic policy at the
Treasury Department) explain the details as to why it is so utterly stupid. I'm
confident you won't read a word of it.
(Chris Christie was here.)
Ben
@Billy, [I wonder why, for the
first time, he addressed me? Is it because I pointed out Gomer & I can’t
see each other and he wanted to let Gomer know I was here? I don’t know, just a
guess.] there are so many reasons why those previous plans are
different than the one today [True. They are,
however, about 90% identical. And the specific point that you brought up, the
mandate, which you are now trying to dodge, is a Republican creation. Although,
unknown to most, the Democrats put in a clause that removes any power from the
IRS to enforce the tax penalty for failing to comply with said mandate. Real Clear Politics: O'Donnell: Obamacare's "Dirty Little Secret" Is The Individual Mandate Is Unenforceable
] but I have no desire to rebut your points. [Right. It has nothing to do with the fact that facts don’t support
your misinformed partisan beliefs.] Out of respect for my cousin
Alan and my [deceased] cousin (yes I mentioned him because I know how close you
guys were and I respect that - but don't say I don't have a right to mention
him) [I never said anyone didn’t have a right to
bring him up. I just don’t appreciate using him for some sympathetic fucking
ploy as if respect for him is the only reason you’re being fucking forced to tolerate
someone with a different goddamned opinion than you.] I will bow out of this
conversation. Plus, I don't have the time to link a million websites and go on
and on about a point till all hours of the night. I work full time (for the
local government believe it or not), have a second job in the film industry,
and have a great family that I would rather spend my valuable time with then
waste it here. [It’s just amazing how much you and
your life are better than me and mine.] I am happy to see that you
are really passionate about your opinions [Other
than my evidence-based opinion that Christy is guilty as fuck, I have given no
opinions. I have presented verifiable facts.] and respect that as
well. The only advice that I can offer is that not everything is a lie. [True. Not everything is a lie. Just everything you and
your mom happen to keep saying.]
** **
I let him have the final word. At least he feels like he
accomplished something. That’s what an incredibly fucking awesome person I am.
You have to admire their tenacity. Every single time they
were proven wrong, they just ignored it, changed the topic to another debunked
right-wing lie and kept plugging along.
Updates on things that happened during the couple days this
discussion took place:
~The Christie administration were handed federal subpoenas.
~Two more top Christie people, including his former Deputy
Chief of Staff, Bridget Kelly (who wrote the email that started this incident,
“Time for some traffic problems in Fort Lee.”) pleaded the Fifth Amendment
against their subpoenas.
~David Wildstein, who previously pleaded the Fifth, had his
lawyer send a letter to the Port Authority asking for them to pay for his fees,
and included in that letter that he has proof Christie knew about the bridge
closure during the four-day event and
not long after, as Christie
claims.
~The Christie administration put out a childish, high
school-like attack letter with a list of insults about Wildstein. Christie
previously praised this man, even inventing a position for Wildstein at the
Port Authority that didn’t previously exist. Then, when Bridgegate first went down,
claimed he hardly knew Wildstein. To be clear: Christie appreciated how good
this guy was, then created a special job for him, then said he hardly knew him,
then pointed out how bad this guy was. Are we to suppose Christie knew how bad
Wildstein was and also wanted to hire him so badly that he invented a position
for him? (Since his resignation, the Port Authority did away with the
position.)
~After Wildstein’s letter claiming he has proof of Christie's bridge closure knowledge, Christie
went on NJ Radio 101.5 and changed his story.
~After much scorn by the media for the Christie administration putting out such an amateurish child-like attack letter against Wildstein, the Christie administration said Chris Cristie himself knew nothing about the childish letter. (This Christie guy seems to be an incredibly inept leader, ay?)
~Christie’s new story contradicts his old story
~The feds have been concentrating on the Christie
administration’s misappropriation of federal Sandy funds.
This discussion WAS
about Christie, after all. Right?
From the Apropos Department:
I could use this right about now.
Some more information regarding poor people and cell phones. Wish I found this during the debate. Not that it wouldn't have been duly ignored...
ReplyDeletehttp://www.upworthy.com/i-didnt-know-my-cellphone-could-do-all-these-things-did-you?c=ufb1